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 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
what's the longest part of the process for you?
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Stanley Pain



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:36 am    Post subject: what's the longest part of the process for you?
Subject description: omitting gestation...
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i was inspired to start this thread when i read kkissinger's response to dewdrop_world's thread about writer's block http://www.electro-music.com/forum/topic-19671.html.

in particular this sentence
Quote:
Music composition is, by far, the most time-consuming part of my preparation.


i immediately thought, "well, it's not for me..." and wondered what it is that people found themselves spending most time on from conception to master or from conception to live show, whichever takes your fancy.

i'd like people to avoid saying gestation, unless you have something particularly interesting to say about it. obviously, you might lay down some drum tracks that you don't use for 3 years, and then suddenly you complete the process in a day... but that's a little dull.


anywho, for me, i reckon mixing takes me the longest until i am happy with the results. i'm a little like Ed Wood when it comes to composition...

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Antimon



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It depends on what you call composition. I've written hundreds of sing-and-strum guitar tunes (some of which I am pleased with and have received sincere kind words for) that where completely finished within an hour tops. Then another hour (tops) arranging/recording until I am sick of recording, and maybe another hour of mixing if it turns out it is something that I would like to show to someone else.

For electro stuff most of the time is spent programming patterns (maybe an hour). Then playing the patterns and recording a couple of times (another hour). If the piece seems worthwhile I'll return to it and add some tracks, and chisel here and there for a couple of days. I've never spent more than a day total on anything.

I think usually recording (especially if I'm playing anything manually, with retakes etc.) is the longest for me.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are two longest parts. One is taking a concept or sound or phrase that I can hear very clearly in my head, and getting it out in the world. This can be on acoustic stringed instruments or electro. Even on the former after many years of play, I am amazed that I can still find new ways to play the thing, but to actually get a new performance technique to come off reliably takes good old fashioned practice. Beginner's Mind.

The other longest part is mining the alternate possibilities of a composition. It's not unusual to have a number of choice points in the structure of a piece, and having made a choice, to later come back and play with the alternative choices, either elsewhere in the same piece or as part or even the basis of another piece. This is great when it happens, because it is like a vein of ore to be mined, although eventually one has to get on to something else, because a vein can become a rut.

Sometimes there are long dry spells between decent compositions, but usually there's a better than normal result at the end of this, so I assume the subconscious is up to something during those times.

Congrats on your album, by the way.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 06, 2007 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For the, the longest part of the process is the detail work. Once I have an idea of the kind of sound I want and how I want it to behave, that it's a matter of figuring out an algorithm that will produce that behavior... then coding... then debugging... then mucking around with parameters to make it even closer to what I want... more debugging... but eventually, there really is a point where I'm reasonably satisfied with the result. Gosh, when I look at it this way, it's kind of miraculous that that moment ever comes.

But that's not the hardest part. By far, the part of the process that is the most intimidating to me is, when I have a body of functioning musical processes, putting them together in real time to make an interactive performance piece. That's when I have to start committing to decisions on the fly, with the risk of making mistakes I can't take back. Nothing in the process makes me more anxious and inspires so much procrastination.

... which says more, I suppose, about my terror of making mistakes than it does about anything else!

James

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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For me it is the arrangement and the little edits. I'll spend ages adding one kick drum and taking one away somewhere else and then listening to the whole thing again, and decide a filter sweep is to shallow and the bass comes in 4 bars to early, which i then sort, which in turn upsets a main riff patterns arrival and associated sound effects. arggghh!!! I hate it.

I love composing ideas and jamming with them but turning that into a finished track can drive me round the bend. The other thing is that sometimes the arrangement can totally affect the feel of the mix and the track, so there is no right or wrong, just what you prefer/want, sometimes form day to day i will change my mind making this part of the process even longer.

I am trying to move away from the above altogether and just record jams and to hell with it if isn't perfect. Which, for me, has two side effects, one it sounds more exciting and needs less edits anyway, two never sounds as polished as the old method. The answer? Practice jamming more and find some way of working the two concepts together a bit. ? I'm still learning.

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Stanley Pain



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:

I am trying to move away from the above altogether and just record jams and to hell with it if isn't perfect. Which, for me, has two side effects, one it sounds more exciting and needs less edits anyway, two never sounds as polished as the old method. The answer? Practice jamming more and find some way of working the two concepts together a bit. ? I'm still learning.


i've learnt to love imperfections and happy little accidents. the unintended is always a pleasant surprise, and although i might edit the results i try to remain faithful to subliminal intentions... i'm sure there's an oblique strategy card that takes care of this Wink

i've also adopted the practise of tuning everything by ear, from synths to my 'cello to guitars and bass. drums and percussion programming also. it poses interesting dilemmas when you get 2 or more parts slightly out of tune with each other. it makes me wonder how on earth i used to cope when i played in classical ensembles... although i remember as a child it was common place to waste a quarter of our rehearsal time arguing about who we were going to tune to (and it definitely wasn't the tuning fork...)

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cronodevir



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The longest part for me? Well, there are a few [well, actually, ALL the parts are long] It useualy takes me a month or two to get near 'finished' with a track.

One of the hardest parts for me is haveing a melody that starts on what i call a starting chord, and ends on an ending chord, without leaveing your sub-consious to expect more. Like the melody is complete. The melody, when played byitself, is in itself a song. i try to make all my melodies like that....and that can sometimes take weeks to do. I have been known to spend several days just figureing out whether this section of melody should be in this key..or that key. I started doing this, because i realized how bad and cheeze alot of trance melodies are, 90% of them are just a near random arrangement of 4 three key chords, that is busted into half notes, or an arp or, in the case of goa/psy...16th/32nd notes.

After the long process of getting the ultimate melody which can best describe the feeling inside. I then start on the second longest task, which is picking the scape of sounds i want people to hear. Amoung this is the bass, which i always spend days on. Mostly because i don't really like what is considered a bass. So i have to kinda make a bass, without it being a bass..if that makes sence, lol. Then i work on the leads, as i uselay have several leads. And this takes a long time aswell, because i have several synths to use. and alot of knobs to tweak. Though, i don't really care about that eTrance plastic 'i want to be 'pro' sounding' thing they incorrectly call "Quality of Sound", no, most of the work is spent on makeing that sound phsyically effect your ears. Not damage them, just effect them. [though, my leads can sometimes be damaging Razz]
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m.earthman



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

do the last thing first
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Stanley Pain



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cronodevir wrote:
...I have been known to spend several days just figureing out whether this section of melody should be in this key..or that key...


this is exactly why i tune all my instruments by ear and to whatever is pleasing my taste at the time. i find that thinking about the key pegs me into the classical mentality which is something i want to avoid... at least at a conscious level.

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Antimon



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Stanley Pain wrote:
cronodevir wrote:
...I have been known to spend several days just figureing out whether this section of melody should be in this key..or that key...


this is exactly why i tune all my instruments by ear and to whatever is pleasing my taste at the time. i find that thinking about the key pegs me into the classical mentality which is something i want to avoid... at least at a conscious level.


Guitars can be both good and bad in this respect. If I stick to the easy chords (E A D etc), it's easy to get stuck in a rut. But if I move down the neck I lose the concept of key, and I'm more governed by the relations between the strings. If I improvise a theme or hook like this, record it, and then move to a keyboard and try to figure out which keys and chords fit to what I just recorded, I get a new angle and hopefully new ideas. It's even ok to remove the original guitar track as I move on, having used it as an inspirational catalyst.

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
Guitars can be both good and bad in this respect. If I stick to the easy chords (E A D etc), it's easy to get stuck in a rut. But if I move down the neck I lose the concept of key, and I'm more governed by the relations between the strings.
/Stefan

When I was learning to finger barre chords on guitar about 40 years ago (scarey thought, kind of), I used to like to leave some open strings and just play up and down against them, not knowing that these were pedal points; basically that was 'wrong' according to my lessons, and it was some years until I decided I could decide that it was OK, and a little later until I learned about pedal points per se.

I still read and hear instructions about being ready to transpose into any key, which is straightforward enough on a fretted instrument with tempered tuning, but is not strictly feasible if you want open-string-pedals to maintain a relationship with the tonal center(s). Alternate tunings, substitute chords, and modal scales are all alternatives to the static concept of key.
Quote:
, and I'm more governed by the relations between the strings.


Indeed

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Grizzle



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For me tracks are usually written pretty quickly. The shortest is about 6 hours, the longest about 14 hours. Usually I prefer to get into a flow of some kind. Get a basic idea and then just let it roll out and try and put some spice on the top, move it from one thing to another. Make sure the energy kind of moves right.

I have 2 long periods:

The first is actually starting. Getting in the mood to go into the studio and get something done. I hate sitting in the studio when I don't feel like making music. Also actually setting up equipment, plugging in all my bits and pieces, setting up tracks, naming tracks, finding samples, tweaking synths for usable sounds. The start is a long period.

Then at the end. I listen to tracks in a few places, off the laptop speakers, in the car, thru the TV speakers, on different monitors, through my hi-fi... then I go back and tweak some of the settings. Then I do it again and again and again. It usually takes me about 5 rounds of listening and re-touching before I'm happy.

So for me it's the start and the end. The middle bit (actually making the track) usually happens fairly quickly in a short constant period or doesn't happen at all and I leave the studio feeling depressed and pretty useless.

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Wayne Higgins



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I just finished "Strength Through Joy". It's a piece based on a footnote I read in Bernt Engelmann's "In Hitler's Germany." It was the first time I had heard of the Nazi propaganda tool, and proceeded to research it further. The concept was that getting workers to take group vacations, they would become more productive workers. Anyway, I had this idea for a piece that would start out as a slow chord progression that would build up into a faster, overbearing stress-filled piece. Due to software limitations, I was able to allow the chords to become larger, but I could not indiscreetly increase the speed of the piece. A total of 112 chords in 1792 measures. Triads which become seventh chords which become ninth chords which end up forcing the listener deal with the entire key.

The reason I wrote this under this thread is after about a year and a half, I found software that enabled me to pull the increased speed off the way I wanted to. I didn't want to change the overall tempo, the change was in the speed of step-filter changes within the chords. So, as far as this one is concerned, it was finding the software.

It happens to be on a disc that I called "It's Just A Matter Of Time." A disd that also includes "The Mystique of the Event" which took months to determine that the "pop" which started the piece could not be removed no matter what I did, and ended up staying (although, if I try.....). And then there is "70 Years" which I got lucky and did in one night, and "Hoping Tomorrow Never Arrives which I recorded in one day and then finished within a week.

What takes me the longest? Jees, I dunno. It depends on the piece. One thing took 42 takes to get the first part right. Another took learning how to play a chord on the guitar, hit the button on the loop pedal with my foot and hit the right click button on the mouse all at the same time. drunken
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some of my best stuff just popped out of my head onto a piano and I happened to have something to record it handy. Production wise, I have my studio set up so I can fire it up within 5 minutes or so, should the muse strike. I can rattle off something resembling a production in an afternoon, if I am feeling productive. But I go weeks without firing up the studio. During the dry times I might go downstairs to the piano, or one of the other instruments. Otherwise, that iPod that I was born with plays in my head, or I use the edit function up in there to chop and channel, maybe find an idea.

Quality wise, I think out of the 160+ compositions I have recorded, maybe 10 or 15 are actually good. It makes me want to redo old ideas, which may or may not be a good idea. It's certainly a different topic.

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Antimon



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EdisonRex wrote:
Quality wise, I think out of the 160+ compositions I have recorded, maybe 10 or 15 are actually good. It makes me want to redo old ideas, which may or may not be a good idea. It's certainly a different topic.


http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-6529.html

Very Happy

/Stefan

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Wayne Higgins



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I knew it would happen! Had a Gin and Tonic, an antihistamine, and a Clozonepalm and still couldn't get to sleep. IT just wasn't right yet. So there was one part of STJ that was bugging me. Up till 1:45am again. All I can think about at work today is "did that fix it?" Still got about of hour or more of work to do before it's to yet another listening stage. I think this is version 8C, but I lost count months ago. I told someone last week I didn't think of myself as a perfectionist. I continue to jinx myself with my own words.

My son and I were in the car and listening to something of mine one day and I mentioned my disfavor of what I was hearing. He said it was ok, I said no.... He added "Good enough, but not quite what you intended, huh." Very well put.

It's not like a composition, or electronic realization as I like to put it, can be written down and then followed smoothly. It's more like I write down a "type" of plan, and then attempt to carry it out (record), and then I get to work.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oenyaw wrote:
"Good enough, but not quite what you intended, huh." Very well put.


My son and I had this discussion on the way to his college in Canada Saturday. He had recorded a performance of mine on Friday that we had to do at the last moment, with no retakes, because my machine housing Live had just returned from repairs, he was packing and his machine with Pro Tools LE, getting ready to leave.

The middle section of the piece when recorded did not sound like what was in my head. Even with isolating headphones, I hear only in part what I intended. He captured an honest image of what the piece sounds like. What he captured works, and arguably works well. But that middle section does not sound like what I hear in my head when I play.

I have heard of musician/composers not composing because other musicians' performances of their works do not sound like what they intended. For me that would be a silly perspective. The work has a life of its own, and I am lucky to have stumbled across it. I never know what someone else is hearing, anyway, but if it works, it works. Comes from being an engineer, I guess.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What is my longest part of the process?

Getting up from bed and being not lazy.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The day after those amazing moments where the stars all align and my muse is sitting on my shoulder, when I can shut down my thinking a bit and let the ideas that have been floating around my head for a long time finally come together into a coherent piece (whether piano or electronic, etc...)... where my fingers do what I want them to and they're not creaking and hurting (yippee) and my head isn't getting in the way... that's perfect.

Yep - the day after that flurry of activity where I start to question whether what I wrote was good. OK - wait - those two tracks, yeah - that was good. That bit in the middle sucked, let's rewrite that. Recording was good, but needs a bit of eq. What if I added a synth pad underneath that bit? Let's double and offset that track a bit to bring in a mild delay. That might keep up for a few days or weeks... tweaking, fixing, rewriting, honing...

And then I let everything sit on the shelf for a while and listen again.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

STJ progress report:

Wednesday night. 2am, still not right. Decided not to drink any more Gin. It keeps me awake.

Thursday night began version 9A. Maybe if I do the cut and then scale back 2 seconds before the mixdown, then shave that off on the editor so that when I splice it all together, it might work.

More Monday! Wish me luck.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oenyaw wrote:
STJ progress report:

Wednesday night. 2am, still not right. Decided not to drink any more Gin. It keeps me awake.

Thursday night began version 9A. Maybe if I do the cut and then scale back 2 seconds before the mixdown, then shave that off on the editor so that when I splice it all together, it might work.

More Monday! Wish me luck.


yeah, gin does that to me too.

Good luck!

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Tim Walters



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What takes longest is the lyrics, when I write them. Occasionally they come quickly, but more often it takes a year or more per verse. I think they come out pretty well, but not in proportion to the amount of effort. I should probably give up, but a well-written song is my favorite thing in music, so I keep trying.

Second is the material-generating phase for my electronic music. I tend to do albums by exploring an area of algorithmic sound generation, amassing results as I go, and putting it together at the end. Of course, sometimes I need to generate more material at the latter stage, but that goes pretty fast since I have a stronger idea of what I'm looking for.

Notes come pretty quickly. I mean, a symphony would take me a while, but verse/chorus/bridge, or bass/lead, don't take me long.

Recording and mixing are the fastest; after twenty years I've gotten very comfortable with it (maybe too comfortable).
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Wayne Higgins



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tim,
I have to ask after that post. Have you ever seen "Night of the Iguana" with Richard Burton, Eva Gardner, Deborah Kerr, Sue Lyon, directed by John Houston? Part of the story is an old poet in the process if writing a poem. Beautiful scene, check it out.

STJ update. As Mrs. Marcellous said in "Pulp Fiction": DISCO!

It finally worked. I use Cubase for recording. I had to do the final mixdown in 17 parts to increas the speed the way I wanted to. Then join the pieces with Schuangs Audio Joiner (just got it, great for joining sound files) to splice it all together, but there was an intense initial attack at the begining of each of the 17 parts. So I finally figured out to make each part 2 seconds too long and then edit the initial 2 seconds with Polderbits sound editor before splicing them together.

I hope this isn't boring everyone. It's just that under a long part of the process page, I thought I'd throw it in. A sort of cyberspace reality show.

It's 65 minutes long, and I'll put it on some place for listening for anyone who cares to hear it. Probably the VIRB page, and if there is aupload listening room here, let me know.
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ooenyaw, stick it on Virb if you want, I'll listen to it.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's there at the bottom of the songs on my VIRB page. Just have to push through the others.
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