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Arranging techniques
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

opg wrote:
Kassen wrote:
Personally I think DAW's aren't all that suitable for electronic music at all.


I am slowly starting to realize this. It is much easier for me to get into ruts when all I work with is Fruity Loops/Cubase and a whole mess of VSTis and FX plug-ins. It's really easy to just fiddle around with an old synth or the SoundLab all day and start thinking of good ideas. I just need to slowly change my processes so I can do this and record, then arrange. Well, this is at least how I am thinking about it now.


Personally I think it is vital to sort out when the writing starts/ends and where the reading starts/ends.. and when the production part of it is happening.

None of us have one set workflow for all of this. Sometimes we will be doing both the writing/reading and the production all at the same time. However, I have chosen to focus on a workflow which won´t restrict my creativity. I have chosen to see a difference between being a composer, a musician and a producer. For instance, I think that my abilities as musician are being restricted when I am supposed to compose at the same time. When improvising ( when doing a live performancs ) I will rely on experience/theory and the stuff that "simply works". My main responsibility is giving the audience a nice experience. As a composer I won´t have that outlook at all.

The main problem with the DAW concept is that a DAW provides all the tools to do the composing/reading/production at the same time. How often have you started out writing a piece and then suddenly been stuck with production issues.. as in getting the best sound or programming a better hihat? And all this at a point in the workflow when you still doesn´t have the music together and frankly, would you really ever consider messing about with getting the sound right before you know how the music reads and how the musicians will play the music?

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am not saying the modern DAW is an evil thing, but it does present yet another obstacle.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

renevanderwouden wrote:
with arranging tracks I mean: finding harmony that fits a melody

Some people first write down a melody and after that some chords that fit.

Others just starting playing chords in the hope that something beautiful happens.

Again others start with a short sequence of notes and make a song of that.

The Matrix screen (apple+6) is like a piano bar while using MIDI. AFter one has played a track on this, it's easy to modify/quantize the sequence of notes.


When I used Logic, I simply (tediously) did this in the matrix editor by placing notes at the positions I wanted them with my mouse, while looping the portion I was working on. Mostly because I compose by ear and never bothered to figure out how to use a MIDI keyboard.

Once I was sick of that and learned the absolute basics of theory (dead simple stuff like what keys correspond to what notes and why Embarassed) I started recording improvised MIDI loops which I would then quantize and manually bump notes until things sounded correct. One thing that I learned too late was that you can actually display multiple sequences layered in the matrix editor, while only editing one, which seems like it would be helpful.

But, both of those methods really yielded very static output, which I struggled with for quite a long time, trying MIDI automation etc... I've now taken to sequencing a couple outboard synths w/ an MPC, improvising w/ patch settings, etc and recording all the while on my DAW. That way I get a bunch of dynamic sounding material just based on that one loop, timed properly, and I can cut that up and arrange it exactly the way I would have played it if I had any manual dexterity, even juxtaposing bits of the played melody... Though that may not be for everyone Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
The main problem with the DAW concept is that a DAW provides all the tools to do the composing/reading/production at the same time. How often have you started out writing a piece and then suddenly been stuck with production issues.. as in getting the best sound or programming a better hihat? And all this at a point in the workflow when you still doesn´t have the music together and frankly, would you really ever consider messing about with getting the sound right before you know how the music reads and how the musicians will play the music?


This happens ALL THE LIVE-LONG DAY. That's why I'm trying to find a new process. Somehow, I had it made 5 years ago. I went back and revisited some songs (not back in time....um, I've said too much already) that I had worked on 5 years ago when I had a "low quality" sequencer with limited capabilities, a Soundblaster card that I used for recording my cheap guitar, old Yamaha PSR-510 keyboard and drumset. I also had just a bad pair of Radio Shack speakers, too.

I first thought this one-year burst of creativity was because I had a lot more free time, but now that I see the DAW rut I'm in, maybe that's not it at all. Back then, I wasn't getting caught up on one hihat sound, I was actually recording myself playing a keyboard that had a wah pedal, octave pedal, and reverb unit hooked up to it. I knew that stupid keyboard inside and out, and I could enter an instrument number from memory, jump to the highest octave, then shove in a cable adapter to hold the pitch bend wheel up another octave. I'd record a piece and then record myself banging on pots and pans.

I did very little in terms of "mastering." Worrying about EQ and very small differences in drum or piano sounds would have slowed me down. Besides, I knew I didn't have the best equipment, so I guess I figured the only thing I had to watch out for was the signal-to-noise ratio. But basically, I was doing a whole lot more live playing and basically zero VSTi twiddling.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

opg wrote:

. Somehow, I had it made 5 years ago....when I had a "low quality" sequencer with limited capabilities, a Soundblaster card that I used for recording my cheap guitar, old Yamaha PSR-510 keyboard and drumset. I also had just a bad pair of Radio Shack speakers, too.

I first thought this one-year burst of creativity was because I had a lot more free time, but now that I see the DAW rut I'm in, maybe that's not it at all. Back then, I wasn't getting caught up on one hihat sound, I was actually recording myself playing a keyboard that had a wah pedal, octave pedal, and reverb unit hooked up to it. I knew that stupid keyboard inside and out, and I could enter an instrument number from memory, jump to the highest octave, then shove in a cable adapter to hold the pitch bend wheel up another octave. I'd record a piece and then record myself banging on pots and pans.

I did very little in terms of "mastering." Worrying about EQ and very small differences in drum or piano sounds would have slowed me down. Besides, I knew I didn't have the best equipment, so I guess I figured the only thing I had to watch out for was the signal-to-noise ratio. But basically, I was doing a whole lot more live playing and basically zero VSTi twiddling.


i tend to think ALL of this stuff...

i.e. limits..endless options...old ... new..live playing... micro-programming..lo-fi...hi-fi.....analog..digital...tubes..solid-state..plug-ins...stomp boxes...sans-amps..amps.....hard synths..soft synths....can all and should work together

especially now

it's all the things we have learned..nothing thrown out...all in it's place

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Right. I don't want to abandon completely what I'm using now, but I also want to add back those things that I stopped doing. There will be conflicts from doing that, and that's where I'm at now.

For example, I feel good about my soundcard and speakers, and there is no reason for me not to record live instruments. I just need to be able to record quickly while I'm "in the zone" and not get slowed down with the new post-production stuff I've learned. At the same time, I don't want to get into the habit of recording live instruments at no more than 4 measures at a time and just end up looping the recordings. I've fallen into that rut before, too.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i hear you...

sounds like you are reigning in the best of all worlds

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

aquanaut wrote:
i write a lead sheet with my guitar first. After that its only a matter of what note each instrument will play and how. But the basic structures is done before i start the computer.


I use similar methodology only with the Synth. I sketch on a draft pad a lead line and the chord changes I hear in my head.

Turn on the DAW and spend some time looping, soloing against it, and playing counterpoint against it.

Then the fun begins, tear it apart, start building themes, but by then I have 12 to 20 minutes of music (and midi) captured that I can use for comparison. I don't introduce effects in any way other than perhaps an Echoplex or such, but only if the piece is that genre.

So in a nutshell:

1) sketch it out
2) record and jam against your sketch (fresh ideas emerge)
3) edit to your hearts delight
4) do secondary takes, harmonies and pads
5) add percussion if required
6) effects
7) master
Cool listen in the car, home, studio, friends house
9) back to the drawing board or,
10) release

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 5:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I am not saying the modern DAW is an evil thing, but it does present yet another obstacle.

It's not the DAW. It's the temptation to use it ineffectively that is the potential obstacle.
Old saying: It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
elektro80 wrote:
I am not saying the modern DAW is an evil thing, but it does present yet another obstacle.

It's not the DAW. It's the temptation to use it ineffectively that is the potential obstacle.
Old saying: It's a poor carpenter who blames his tools.


There's been some interesting studies that pertain to this phenomenon (computers in music) and the issue lies around right brain and left brain functions. Forgive me for not being as accurate about which side does which, but the logic side is on the opposite side to the creative side, so anytime you have to engage logically (i.e. tweak computer settings) and break the creative flow, you run into issues and hamper your abilities.

The old days (funny to call them that) you turned on tape and jammed...if you found something fun, you went back to it later and wrote around it to build a piece.

today, (much as I stated above) find that jam you like, then turn on your DAW and let it go...playing endlessly against it, letting it do the technical and then come back to it to find the parts you like.

I bought this concept hook, line and sinker and actually picked up a Frontier Tranzport so I could remotely trigger my DAW and not sit in front of the computer while I composed...this allowed me to do whatever I want.

Turn off quantize if you're just capturing midi, otherwise, if it's audio, make sure you have plenty of disk and let 'er rip and let the time just pass while you play and see what comes out.

I was watching yet another documentary yesterday on the "summer of love" and interesting the perspectives you don't find in today's music...the free flowing experimentation that existed in the 60's into the 70's vs. the technical workflow....I find some of the most fruitful times for me to be when I can just play and ignore the rest....dim the lights, let it escape and perhaps you give birth to a huge creative genius effort or something a tad bit less glamourous....as always, your mileage will vary.

Bodie

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbbodie wrote:

The old days (funny to call them that) you turned on tape and jammed...if you found something fun, you went back to it later and wrote around it to build a piece.


Actually in the old days I composed the same as in the new days. I listed for ideas, took notes, sketched a structure then wrote the composition, usually in a somewhat non linear fashion often modifying the initial design of the composition structure a little or even a lot along the way. To me the DAW is a tool for realizing compositions, not creating them. But then I don't play and I started writing music before this was born.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, a Wollensak! what great memories.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

....I'm familiar with Hacky Sacks....what's a Wollensack Wink????
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These were the ubiquitous tape recorders in offices and schools in the late 50s and early 60s in the US. They used 5 inch reel of 1/4 inch tape. Mono, of course. The came with a nice hand-held mic. They worked great, but not hifi by any standards. People used them for tape music, but when they were popular I didnt' know about that. Another popular tape recorder from those days was the Webcor, but not nearly as popular as the Wollensak.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

This picture is an ultra deluxe model.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very cool...I'm jealous Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
These were the ubiquitous tape recorders in offices and schools in the late 50s and early 60s in the US. They used 5 inch reel of 1/4 inch tape. Mono, of course. The came with a nice hand-held mic.


I'm pretty sure the picture I posted is of a model 1500 Wollensak and that it took 7 inch reals with the top cover off. Eh? It's from the early 60's. It was the first mass marketed consumer portable tape recorder, I think. It weighed about 20 pounds and obviously (?) it's active elements were vacuum tubes, small ones like 12AU6s if not those themselves.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:

Actually in the old days I composed the same as in the new days. I listed for ideas, took notes, sketched a structure then wrote the composition, usually in a somewhat non linear fashion often modifying the initial design of the composition structure a little or even a lot along the way. To me the DAW is a tool for realizing compositions, not creating them. But then I don't play and I started writing music before this was born.


In truth I'm thinking about modifications to this. I generally do extremely retro stuff. I'm gona try a less conventional composition. After coming up with the initial sketch for the piece I'm gona try to "build" the synths for the imagined sounds in Reaktor. Another varient (for me) that I've been thinking about is to try building the synths first (mostly around some kind of "unifying theme")and then create a composition for the sounds.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
it took 7 inch reals with the top cover off. Eh?


Well, yes, but who took the cover off? Wink

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
bachus wrote:
it took 7 inch reals with the top cover off. Eh?


Well, yes, but who took the cover off? Wink


Don. Smile

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