Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:14 am Post subject:
Vintage Sounding Modular Oscs and Filters
I'm very frustrated with my kit at the moment. My favorite synths I have are my EMS Synthi, SEMS, Arp2600, EML101 and Minimoog but my expanding Eurorack Modular is my least favorite sounding set. Problem is, each Mono has either just a Low Pass filter or not enough patch ability to cross mod oscs or CV control everything. My modular can do everything under the sun but I hate the basic sound of it.
Plan-B, ASys, Cwejman and Doepfer's Oscs and Filters are fat for sure, but are no where as cool sounding as what my vintage monosynths can do. They're like having a Voyager in modular; too perfect and clean. My Macbeth M5 is the closest to a compete vintage sounding patchable synth but it's basically a patchable MiniMoog (I can do perfect A/B's with my Mini and M5) and I really prefer the more metallic industrial SEM, EMS type sound.
I can't put my finger on it but it may be the fact that the old mono's use discrete components where as the new stuff uses IC's. Are there any new modular makers using simpler components or some vintage modular panels that would integrate into my new syntem? I don't know the sound of old modular stuff but I did play a Steiner Parker Synthacon and would probably like the Syntha System if I could ever find or afford one.
Well, I kinda know what you mean. I remember vividly how embarassingly plinky the Korg MS-20 sounded compared to the Octave Instruments Cat2 and the ARP Odyssey. It got even worse with the SH-2 and ProMars. I managed to figure out how to get usable sounds out of these though.
Still, a modern modular should be able to produce excellent and gritty sounds.
OT: Can you tell us a bit about the signal paths , synth-> what exactly ? _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
Sweet looking modules... _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
hey, I found the sub-modules page..
http://www.discretesynthesizers.com/dsc/cmssubmods.htm _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 17204 Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 102
G2 patch files: 60
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:57 am Post subject:
I'm not saying what you hear is not there, but I find it very interesting. When that vintage stuff was new, most people were not particularly impressed and couldn't wait for new technology to improve the sound. The vintage people abandoned the old stuff in favor for the new for a reason. Now the old sound is considered better than the new, by some people. This hasn't got much to do with discrete vs. IC. ICs are just networks of transistors. Still things will certainly have differences in sounds. According to Don Buchla, a major contributor to the different sound is the size of the compensation capacitors used in the in the circuits.
BTW, I think every Moog modular system I've played sounds different from the others. The same is true of Steinway pianos.
Even in the digital world this "old sounds better" phenomena is present. Many people prefer the sound of the old Nord Modular to the new G2. Some people don't care for acoustic guitars unless they are 60 years old or more (the guitars, not the people), or violins that are younger than 200.
I'm not saying this is good or bad. But I think we focus too much on the instrument instead of on the music. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 17204 Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 102
G2 patch files: 60
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:08 am Post subject:
080 DISCRETE OP AMP - (used in the CMS 9015 mixer) - 75.00
For the true audiophile in your ward. A discrete, high fidelity, super high slew rate audio amplifier housed in a 1 x 1 x 1/2 inch module. But the great thing about this baby is that it uses the standard 8 pin dip pattern, so you can now install discrete gain stages in any equipment using single op amp chips. Guaranteed to be ultra low noise and chip free.
This kind of thing was big in the early-mid 1970s when IC op amps first came out. There were many boutique companies making this kind of thing. By the late 1970s one could get really great op amps. Moog, Buchla and almost all others moved to ICs for good reason.
A good analog IC designer can give you many reasons why analog IC op amps can have superior circuit characteristics to discrete components. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff
I'm not saying what you hear is not there, but I find it very interesting.
The difference in the "audio quality" is there, I´m sure of it.
It could be that a different patching strategy is called for. A modern modular will be "better" in many ways, but this usually means you cannot quite copy the patch 1:1 from an older system.
Keep in mind the various approaches used by NM/G patchers in order to tweak it by ear and reasoning rather than make a patch which is a copy of the module setup of say an ARP Odyssey.
mosc wrote:
When that vintage stuff was new, most people were not particularly impressed and couldn't wait for new technology to improve the sound. The vintage people abandoned the old stuff in favor for the new for a reason. Now the old sound is considered better than the new, by some people.
I fondly remember the days when all the classic synths could be bought secondhand for nearly nothing. New was always better, and the old unstable gear was worthless within weeks or months.
I also remember when Roland released the JXP3 and Junos. I was not impressed. I felt it was downhill from there. The 80s was clearly not about cool synths.
Remember the days you had no cred at all if you didn´t have an Ensoniq Mirage? _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:57 am Post subject:
Thanks for the CMS link. His stuff is almost as expensive as a Buchla so I really hope to hear sound clips before ordering anything. So far in the modular world, more expensive tends to get fatter and more stable (ie: Modcan), not on the verge of mayhem these vintages do
The main sonic feature I hear from my older synths is Oscillator Beating; the interaction between oscs that causes random sonic artifacts and a chorus like effect.
Here's an example I did a year ago of my Synthi (1 Osc then 2 then 3):
Overall, I just want some of this vintage sound in my modular, so I can have access to CV controlling all the various parameters and set all these cool Euro effects and wild modules at them. _________________ http://www.REwireMusic.com
Buy REwire - "Bit By Bit" CD at http://cdbaby.com/cd/rewire
Album Promo Video:HERE
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 17204 Location: Allentown, PA
Audio files: 102
G2 patch files: 60
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:11 am Post subject:
Sounds like your Synthi is joyfully out of tune and alignment.
You might consider not buying new gear at all and start building your own stuff. If that's out, get Metasonix modules. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff
Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 4279 Location: London, UK
Audio files: 163
Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject:
mosc wrote:
080 DISCRETE OP AMP - (used in the CMS 9015 mixer) - 75.00
For the true audiophile in your ward. A discrete, high fidelity, super high slew rate audio amplifier housed in a 1 x 1 x 1/2 inch module. But the great thing about this baby is that it uses the standard 8 pin dip pattern, so you can now install discrete gain stages in any equipment using single op amp chips. Guaranteed to be ultra low noise and chip free.
This kind of thing was big in the early-mid 1970s when IC op amps first came out. There were many boutique companies making this kind of thing. By the late 1970s one could get really great op amps. Moog, Buchla and almost all others moved to ICs for good reason.
A good analog IC designer can give you many reasons why analog IC op amps can have superior circuit characteristics to discrete components.
I remember drooling over the Burr Brown catalogue. My dad had Playboy in the house, I'd read them and then spend more time with my TI, Analog Devices, Nat Semi and Burr Brown catalogues. My parents worried needlessly about me, too.
It remains a big project for me to understand, sonically, what it is People Are Looking For. I have nasty stuff like the Wretch, I have relatively clean stuff like the Nord Lead 1, I have in the middle stuff like the Voyager (we can argue about this, but it's not THAT clean). And I have some hissy, hummy 80s and 90s EMU and Roland beasties that I find more limiting (increasingly so- the sound quality of the Morpheus pales in comparison to the Neuron, but its so different architecturally I can't bear to part with it yet).
Everything gets used, not at the same time, but on different pieces. Work is work. We use what we want to hear used.
So what's my point... I think there are subjective issues here. I like my SE-1X for different reasons from my Wretch, but I use them each about as much. How much space, and how much money do you have?
Or how much are you willing to compromise. I've had to. _________________ Garret: It's so retro.
EGM: What does retro mean to you?
Parker: Like, old and outdated. Home,My Studio,and another view
Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject:
Well I found the vintage Osc I was looking for: A 70's Buchla 259. Check out this video I made. It integrates perfectly with my modular, even with the scaling.
Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:09 am Post subject:
mono-poly wrote:
Anyone got some Buchla voc's for sale?
Hehehe.
I love old vco's to and just bought a Moog Dual VCO rack unit.
I've been seeing those around. Would you say it sounds like the old modular oscs or closer to the later stuff?
About the Buchla's, there were two on E-bay a few weeks ago that did not get sold as the reserve was not met. Expect $3000-4000 each.
I am itching to hear how the new 261e compares to the 259 as I want a second one. The 259e or 260e is the one everyone makes the banjo like wavetable sounds with; the new one is supposed to sound very much like the vintage though may alias in higher registers. OK for me as I like the growl sounds. _________________ http://www.REwireMusic.com
Buy REwire - "Bit By Bit" CD at http://cdbaby.com/cd/rewire
Album Promo Video:HERE
Joined: Dec 06, 2006 Posts: 56 Location: Los Angeles, CA USA
Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:16 am Post subject:
synthetic wrote:
Has anyone checked out the EMS modules from Analogue Systems?
There's just two, the EMS Filter and Trapezoid Generator. The Synthi Filter is hard edged, not exactly like the Synthi's but better than most other filters in Euro. The Trapezoid Generator is somewhat superfluous, something that limited the original Synthi and you can recreate with the Gate Repeat switch on an Analogue Systems Envelope or many other cycling LFO's and Envs. Too bad they didn't try to make a Synthi OSC, that'd be cool. _________________ http://www.REwireMusic.com
Buy REwire - "Bit By Bit" CD at http://cdbaby.com/cd/rewire
Album Promo Video:HERE
Yeah, there seems to be a market for sloppy old oscillators.
I think companies are worried they will score bad reviews, after all the Synthi still gets bad reviews in some quarters that it's "only good for sound effects", "impossible to tune", etc.. Not that that's really true, but there's more effort and perhaps maintanance involved. Not every synthi is plug and play for playing melodies in a standard scale.
But you do have a point that you want your oscs to be a little quirky. I'm surprised you don't like Plan B. I would have thought they would satisfy many people thinking along those lines.
As for Analogue Systems, besides the two authorized adaptations their VCO, while not a clone, has some resembalance featurewise to the Synthi. Though soundwise it's not the same. Their ring mod is supposedly similar but I've not tried it.
So what do you think Roland is doing on the SH-2?? Especially given it's a single osc. All I can think of is they rely on a sub-osc that only some modulars really utilize these days. Anyway the System 100 stuff might be one way of getting an older sound that's semi-modular. The VCO does sound great to me (better than the 100M stuff in general). Lately people seem to be dropping the name of the SH-2 more often than a lot of other Rolands of that era. I can guess it has something over the newer, more IC based SH-101 besides an extra envelope. Maybe buying for cheap and selling for more has something to do with it, but I'm just curious why it has more buzz recently than other SH series gear.
I've been thinking about and wanting to experiment with gain and modulars going into the filter and VCA. I'm beginning to suspect that many people don't really experiment with boosting or at least matching the gain going into the filter and or VCA. I suspect a lot of people just patch them up and decide they like or don't like the results in comparison. The output on their favorit might just fall into that sweet spot by being hotter than the not so good sounding one but not too hot. Now that of course won't answer a quest for what might only be the drift relationship between 2 vcos that you seem to be after. Along those likes have you tried upsetting the tracking on one or modulating by a tiny amount?
"MacBeth Studio Systems' latest development has now gone further than before! Above is an artists' impression (click on the pic for a bigger image!) of the new all analogue X-FACTOR performance synthesizer!
We have redesigned our original circuits completely from scratch and have come up with a synth that is a total analogue soundhouse! Focussing closely on the synths of the past, and having listened to many
comments that users of modernanalogue wishing for the old school sound- we have come up with this!
...and it does sound old school-but that should be no surprise- we've designed it using the old ICs, Transistors and other discrete parts from the past! In the next two or three days the final specification shall be made available here- so keep looking.
Price to follow as well..."
Joined: Jun 29, 2007 Posts: 1086 Location: Loss Angeles
Audio files: 3
Posted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:19 am Post subject:
How about both Rehberg in Germany and Robin Wood in England, still making Putneys to order. I remember looking at a Putney saw wave once, while looping, and noted that each wavecrest had noticeable variance. This must total into something sloppy, compared to the still life of modern oscillators.
Also, MOS-LAB are cloning Moog modular gear. Club of the Knobs, if real, is seemingly coming close as well.
Owing to the resale prices of Moog and Buchla vintage oscillators and other modules, there is indeed seemingly a market for slop.
Isn't there an Oscillator Slop function on the Evolver? But it only goes to 5, IIRC.
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