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My vu meter is lying to me
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Michael Chocholak



Joined: Nov 27, 2003
Posts: 305
Location: Cove, Oregon, USA
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:16 pm    Post subject: My vu meter is lying to me Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I've done most of my work in analog. I'm used to the unforgiving integrity of analog vu, needles or led. Except for momentary bursts, you want to keep it out of the red or pay the price of obnoxious distortion (unless, of course, that's what you want) and... rewind/reset/re-record.

I switched to digital recording a little over a year ago. I was always told by dig advocates that it was emminently clean and controllable. At first it was. But a lot of my sound leans way over into the thick & humid realms of resonance, verb, and bottom end. I watch my meters and have kept it cool but still true to the sound in my head.

Recently I wrote a piece that's driving me nuts. It's thick & resonant in spots, but I've kept the individual tracks in bounds and they all sound fine individually on all the different software I use to write & mix. But when I mix them I get unwanted breakup where the timbres collide. I'm still ok on the meters & amplitude is ok on the graph. So what's the deal? So far I can back off on eq & volume which helps, but after a while this starts cutting into the integrity of the piece.

Am I overrunning my system? I'm running XP on a Celeron 1200mhz with 256 mb of ram. My old machines would never treat me this way. Confused

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paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
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Location: toronto, canada
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it's the mix bus

when you get multiple files that have 'thick' waveforms using up all the dynamic range and thus using up all 24bits [the formula is ' 6db of dynamic range = 1bit], and you layer a few of these files, the sum of the channel bit-usage exceeds the total bit-depth of the mix bus, and clipping will occur




pro tools uses a 64 bit mix bus which means you can crank a few 24 bit file up to the fulll dynamic range and not get clipping...kinda , sorta, almost like analog

but if you are using a 32-bit mixer....there is less of this bit-headroom and just a few tracks of full-range audio will clip the mixer


it's one of the limitations of the non Pro Tools DAW

i have learned this the hard way in Cubase

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, it is probably the mix buss. You must reduce the volume on the individual channels with a few dB. Which DAW do you use?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Are you using compressors and limiters with noiseshaping/ dithering like the Waves plugins on the individual tracks? This can add some weird stuff to the mix. If you do, read the PDF about those plugins. Those can add some seriously weird clicks to the lot too.
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Michael Chocholak



Joined: Nov 27, 2003
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Location: Cove, Oregon, USA
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, thx!

I'm using Goldwave to work the individual tracks & Quartz Audiomaster to mix.

I don't use compression/limiters unless I want to warp something out. In spite of what they are intended for I haven't found too many that can do their job with any kind of subtlety.

I've already played with the volume & eq and the db look fine on the graph.

It seems to happen on mixes only. On individual tracks I can even get pretty nuts and still not distort. So I'm thinking the 32 vs 64 bit deal in the mix bus is it. I've got ProTools on another pc that's older & slower running 98. Need to dig it out & fire it up. And the piece itself is a composite of a number of files which I'll need to bring over and arrange again.

But now, at least, I understand what's going on. Thx again Cool

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I was seriously tempted to give up everything and go be a farmer or something... - Jack Endino, Seattle record producer
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Truth is.. any decent modern DAW will work just fine. You just have to reduce the level on each track a bit. Pro Tools is cool but is not perfect in itself and it does not use VST plugins etc. Digidesign has its own plugin format.

It is a well known propblem that some DAWs will have problems mixing more than like 12 tracks or so. If it does not.. it has been badly programmed or there is something else going on. Most apps from the big vendors are just great. The mix many channels with no problem at all. Do you have a CPU meter? Are the disks slow?

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paul e.



Joined: Sep 22, 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah pro tools is not perfect

no DAW is..but it does have the highest bit-depth for a mix buss of any DAW

at least the latest versions

and hey you can run VST in Pro Tools now...

mixing with pro tool's mix buss might help michael in this case rather than just reducing db ... so the integrity of the ultra-thick sounds is not compromised by reducing the overall amplitude [which may end up being more gain reduction than a few db's]

i am guessing these tracks are not 'loud' per se.. just really 'thick' ?

and maybe u used pitchhshifting or down-sampling to create these sounds ?

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Michael Chocholak



Joined: Nov 27, 2003
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Location: Cove, Oregon, USA
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, we're only talking about 3-4 tracks here, but yes, there was pitch shifting & down sampling which I use fairly frequently. Guess I just got a little over the top on this one.

Hadn't checked the cpu action which would be easy enough to do.

I'm reconstructing the piece using protools on another machine which is slower with less ram & lots of quirks (that's why it got stuck in the closet). So right now I'm slowly but surely ascending the PT learning curve between farm projects.

Right now the piece has only got one spot where there's some breakup - which still drives me crazy - if there's going to be distortion in a track it should be because I want it there. I might upload it as is and continue to work towards a better, cleaner version.

Thx for the info & guidance on this one. I think you guys got me on the right track to a solution - and hopefully a better chance of avoiding this particular frustration in the future Very Happy

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I was seriously tempted to give up everything and go be a farmer or something... - Jack Endino, Seattle record producer
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