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 Forum index » How-tos » Ambiophonic Sound Reproduction
Ambiophonic encoder - RACE algorithm
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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nescivi wrote:
Quote:
I believe the point here may be that the behaviour of the person can influence the availability of information on the technology.


yes.

My point was mostly that the manner in which the information has been presented has been lacking scientific quality, i.e. content, or the acknowledgement of the possibility that the posed theory may be disproved, which is the underlying principle in western science, a tradition from which - I believe - the researchers in question come.

If there were a proper paper on Ambiophonics explaining the underlying principle in a rigorous way, I could critique it better and compare it to other technologies of (spatial) sound reproduction.



Very good points.

It seems to me there are two objective issues. The first is the most simple. Does Ambiophonics or Sonic Holography encoding substantially reduce ICC. That could be determined unequivocally by the standard methods of quantitative experiment. The other: Does ICC widen the sound stage and/or localization of sources seems a matter of perception and would, I think, (not an area with which I’m familiar) require subjective evaluations by a statistically significant number of subjects. I don’t know if either of these has been done. So why don’t’ you, nescivi, research that and determine if it has been done. If it has not, let us convince some grad students, who are looking for a thesis project, to do just these things.

The rest of us who find the effects of ICC to be compelling and pleasurable will be glad to cheer you on while these things are done and we continue with our, admittedly subjective, fun and equally subjective experimentations. I think all of us here (on this sub forum) accept the scientific method as determinative. So go for it nescivi! And let us know if we can be of assistance in this worth while pursuit.

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bachus



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nescivi wrote:
Listener preference tests for various other systems are available, so why not for ambiophonics? If they had done tests for that, they would surely reference them, right?
That is an assumption and not in the scientific spirit. Very Happy


nescivi wrote:
The ICC bit was a bit unclear to me, reading the website, so I was confused in general what they are actually doing.


ICC is simply phase canceling over some continuous portion of the spectrum the signal from the left source when it reaches the right ear and vice versa.

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nescivi



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Proper referencing is part of scientific practice.


Alas, I have just moved on from sound spatialisation as my Ph.D. project to a post-doc on another topic, more related to sensing and interactive composition structure.
There are only so many hours in a day, and I think I've done my share of work in the spatial audio reproduction field.

Personally, I have recently found myself interested in the low-fi qualities of cheap speakers and utilising those in sound installations.
That is, apart from working on a composition now that will either use panning and ambisonic techniques, or (in another version) WFS.
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bachus



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nescivi wrote:
Proper referencing is part of scientific practice.


Yes it is. I too would very much like to see this put on a firm foundation. But I am not in a position to do it. --Just looking to recruit others to do the work. I didn't mean for my sloth to encumber you. You just seemed to have the right attitude and motivations.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
...I've been involved with Robin Miller and Ralph for a few years running experiments using ambiophonic setups. As you already know, I'm very impressed with it compared to stereo...
Last night, Howard demonstrated the ambiophonic encoder that he has programmed into his Nord Modular G2. He played The Beatles Love CD as source material over a cheap set of Cambridge Audio computer speakers. The result was dramatic! As you all know, center information played over speakers in the traditional stereo placement is less than ideal. With speakers close together in the Ambiophonic placement, the center image was magnificent and didn't move about as my head moved. Additionally, the left-right spread was very much wider than the speaker placement would indicate. I was no longer listening to music over speakers. I was listening to music in the room!

I had no idea this was being discussed on electro-music, though I should have guessed. A few years ago, Robin demonstrated Ambiophonics in a van and I was hard pressed to hear results that would excite me. As a result, I've followed Ambiophonics with only a very mild interest. After last night's demo, I now have to read all the previous posts in this thread. The sweet spot is too small and my huge (5 foot tall) Snell speakers would block the view of my TV if I were to set them up in an Ambiophonic placement. But I need to investigate this in my studio. If I mixed a mutitrack recording of one of my bands over an Ambiophonic system, I'd be very interested to hear how a mix would then translate being played over a traditional stereo system...

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bachus



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

djfoxyfox wrote:
[The sweet spot is too small and my huge (5 foot tall) Snell speakers would block the view of my TV if I were to set them up in an Ambiophonic placement. ..


You could look for an old Carver C9 Sonic Holography device. It uses the standard 60 degree placement of the speakers so the speakers would not interfere with the Video Screen. The Mrs. and I often listen to music together and the ICC unit can simply be bypassed and we can both at least have stereo.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
You could look for an old Carver C9 Sonic Holography device. ... the ICC unit can simply be bypassed and we can both at least have stereo.
What is Sonic Holography?
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bachus



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

djfoxyfox wrote:
bachus wrote:
You could look for an old Carver C9 Sonic Holography device. ... the ICC unit can simply be bypassed and we can both at least have stereo.
What is Sonic Holography?


Bob Carver's term for his version of ICC. Ambiophonics (if you exclude synthetic ambience) is just a type ICC and a recording protocol. The narrow angle between speakers offers several advantages over Sonic Holography but has the disadvantages you first mentioned.

Two points about the problems you mentioned. I should say that, theoretically, because Ambiophonics has a "sweet line" instead of a very small sweet spot (as does Sonic Holography) more than one person can listen at the same time but the mechanics of that can be problematic. I can't see how to do it in my own listening room for example. Also note that there are (more or less) acoustically transparent projection screens available so that if you went with a front projection TV you could just pull the screen down in front of the speakers for AV use and roll it up for serious listening.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One more point. I have never heard an ambiophonic recording on an ambiophonic system. Thus my statement that: "Ambiophonics ... is just a type ICC and a recording protocol. " May be very unfair. It is clear that more than a few find this correlation of playback and recording protocols as the essence/the primary rational behind Ambiophonics.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The ambiophonic blurb describes ambiophonic playback to be intended/suitable for a particular type of music or recording setting, but Howard stated it is intended to enhance any stereophonic recording.
Are there any specs out there for ambiophonic recording methods?

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bachus



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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Look under:
Two Channel Ambiophonic Recording
here
http://www.ambiophonics.org/Ch_9_ambiophonics_2nd_edit.htm

So far that is all I have found on the subject.

But I will stand by the assertion that good ICC enhances any stereo signal and that IC is entirely an unnatural artifact of reproduction using two channel playback. It's eeeeevil Twisted Evil

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am loath to beat even a dead horse, but the human auditory system uses both interaural amplitude and time delay data (as well as HRTFs) to locate sound sources.

IC provides erroneous time delay data which limits the minds ability to interpret real time delay data present in the signals or to interpret interaural amplitude only differences in panned mono signals.

I make these assertions based on my own subjective evaluations of ICC vs non ICC reproductions but they are reinforced by the subjective reports of others. I would like firmer ground on which to stand but at present this is as good as it gets. dunno

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The soundfield system is not ambiophonic, but ambisonic. These are quite different. Of course it is possible to create a hybrid, but this topic is just about ambiophonic which is crosstalk canceling of the front stage.

Last night there were a bunch of people over here for a social occasion. I played the Beatles Love album for them over a small ambiophonic setup using the G2 for the encoder. Everyone was very impressed. (see djfoxyfox's comment above).

I'm going to set up an ambio demo at electro-music 2008.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I'm going to set up an ambio demo at electro-music 2008.
Hear, hear! That would be great because it would enlighten a lot of people. People would hear how fabulous low grade speakers sound in an ambiophonic setup, giving them the idea that anyone with a decoder can do this without a large layout of cash. I need to update my G2 to v1.40 so I can load your decoder and then I'll be in business.

Now all we need to do is to get Robin to be on hand for questions, discussions, or even a presentation.

Cheers,

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here is a link to a formula for the interaural time difference derived on the basis of an asumption that the source is in the far field and that the head is spherical. It accomodates for the head wrap distance.
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