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 Forum index » How-tos » Production - engineering/mixing
Mixing down to 1/4 inch tape.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Funny. I am not called an 'idiot" all that often, but I remember very clearly like it was yesterday every time that has happened. Must be human nature.


No? I think it would be good to be called a idiot more often. It means you were doing something very wrong and in that case it's good to be notified or you were doing something in a very different way, so different that people didn't previously think it was possible and have trouble getting to grips with it, which is a great sign in both engineering and art (asuming you are sure it does indeed work).

Oh, and "The Idiot" is also a rather amazing album, easily amongst the best of Iggy Pop's "solo" work Personally I feel it's amongst Bowie's best as well but I suppose there will be more disagreement there, That has to count as a bonus?

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Most of the time, when people call you an idiot, it's not intended as a helpful instructional comment, it is an insult.

Anyway, I think the human nature part is focusing on the negative and dismissing the positive comments.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Most of the time, when people call you an idiot, it's not intended as a helpful instructional comment, it is an insult.


Mostly when I call people "a idiot" it's immediately after noticing they did something that's both stupid and dangerous in a way that could have been prevented.

Driving the multi-ton cart used to get boats out of the water over the three phase power-line for this cart would be a good example, that's always a good way to risk 6 figures of damage and jeopardise some lives. Oh, and leaving the gas of the stove on overnight and the door from the kitchen to the balcony open could get everybody killed, particularly in a house with multiple smokers.

I found calling people a idiot loudly and repeatedly in such situations, then calming down, apologising for the shouting yet stressing the dangers of the situation again really helps. Those incidents were never repeated (I only did the shouting in the second case but could've died in both).

I'm sorry but I feel it can be both justified and healthy to call people a idiot... Playing a tape of unknown music in reverse isn't one of them but it can be good.

Quote:
Anyway, I think the human nature part is focusing on the negative and dismissing the positive comments.


In my experience good artists are always very critical of themselves as they are continually striving to improve. In some ways this tendency can be very healthy. Of course we also need to recognise positive comments to know when we are on the right track.

Personally I feel this composer should have enjoyed the insecurity he felt about hearing his record in reverse instead of dealing with it in the way he did.

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mattstollar



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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi guys

I don't know whether I should start a new thread and if this is doesn't get any new replies I will but my subject matter belongs in this column.

Basically I am coming to the end of my first album produced in my home studio which is predominantly digital. (I'm a big fan of Tracktion)

However my music is either classical or folk/blues/rock/jazz and therefore in terms of ambience I have been trying for a feel that hey guess what 'sounds like it was produced in the 70's'.

(sometimes 60's/50's but mainly 70's)

I have got some very convincing results all on digital. But the sound is a little harsh. I would compare it to an even scrapier version of an early Dylan record.

Thus I have become very interested in getting a 1/4 inch player to mix down onto to get warmth and saturation. However I don't yet know what that sounds like when you get it in real terms because I haven't tried yet.

Preferrably I want it to sound sometimes like music playing off or into a two inch loop of rubber. i.e I want the sound to kind of be very strong but dissappear at the same time. A real mellow feeling of it being like small silver balls, proton size falling off the side of an elastic rubber vertical. Oomph but with amazing slack.

(I hope I don't sound like a niave wine taster. I'm trying to convey the sound I'm hearing in my head.)

First off can I use a 16 track 1/2 inch tape recorder (I have one of these Fostex G16) to record a stereo mixdown. Recording left and right into 8 tracks respectively. If I take that to amaster engineer will the two sets of 8 tracks register as two tracks on the mastering machine?

Or is it better to record onto 1/4 inch to get the sound I describe above.

I'm going to keep my WAV files as an option and also get a DAT player. But I want as many options as possible to get a variety of sounds.

With the 1/4 inch player I would prefer to get one which has some features for manipulating the sound on board. I would rather not get something that just records in very high fidelity. Are there models that have some knobs etc to influence sound balance and texture?

I know you can all help and look forward to your wonderful replies.

Much love Matt
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome Matt,

your post seems on topic here to me.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome

mattstollar wrote:

However my music is either classical or folk/blues/rock/jazz and therefore in terms of ambience I have been trying for a feel that hey guess what 'sounds like it was produced in the 70's'.

(sometimes 60's/50's but mainly 70's)

I have got some very convincing results all on digital. But the sound is a little harsh. I would compare it to an even scrapier version of an early Dylan record.


You don´t need tape in order to get that sound. I´d say that you should focus on getting all the recording and production stuff right first and then possibly ditch the tape idea altogether.

However, 60s/50s and the 70s.. we are talking a wide range if very different gear and production styles here. You must keep in mind that the gear revolution was mindblowing way back then. People actually invested silly amounts of money into the newest gear all the time. Big recording consoles became the latest craze in the late 60s and in the early 70s this stuff could actually be bought. There weren´t really too many huge consoles to be bought before 1969 unless we are talking PA/sound reindorcement and even then.. A lot of stuff was modular and built to order.

Harsh? In what way?

And do you have some specific productions in mind? Like how you want your stuff to sound?

I don´t think it is correct to attribute all the good qualities of the recordings made way back then to tape only. In most cases they knew how to work around the problems, and you might say that they managed to make good recordings despite the fact that they had to use tape.

What gear do you use now? And how?

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed May 07, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess you could use tape too, but I think bouncing the master to tape would be what you really need to do if you were to use tape at all.
A good Studer 1/2 inch stereo deck is always a good choice.

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mattstollar



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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks a lot for replying. To answer your questions:

My gear is average certainly not 'the cheapest'.

Tracktion 2 (about to go up to 3)

Plugins. Mainly just Voxengo Old School reverb and the built in eq. I do most of my compressing with an eq plugin so almost one hundred percent avoid compression except on drums in which case I often throw in 2 Polyquasher mastering compressors side by side.

But as I say it's mainly discreet use of the reverb which I sometimes wack up and just shit loads of automated eqing to weave the sound in and out. I sometimes have between 5 and 15 eq plugins all doing slightly different things along the length of a single track.

So it's fair to say that I do 70% of the production inside the computor.

Mics: Mostly Beta 57 dynamic mic. (but half the album was vocally recorded in an hour trip to a studio with a Neumann)
I've just brought two Performance 200 condensers but have yet to use.
I've got 'made in china' drum mics that are funilly enough quite O.K.

mixer: I've got a Fostex 802 recorder that is slightly on the blink on some days and a couple of cheap Behringers as mixers.

I've just invested in a cheap pre amp. Primordis or something. Retails new at £89.00.

M AUDIO bog industry standard soundcard.

Monitors:My Achilles heal are two cheap edirol active monitors but their slight tinniness is quite apt for the music.

A lot of Korg synths (mainly used for orchestra) , accoustic electric lap steel and bass, a violin and a set of real drums

I have used tape more as a mental trophy metaphor for success in my head, allying it's use to getting a Dylan/Beatles/Zep/Hendrix sound. I love that era particularly and have got pretty good results on digital. I certainly am not anti digital.

After coming out of the learner's 'confusion mind set' that recorded my material through a lot of luck and experimentation I am finding in the cold yet pleasant light of day as I emerge a mature producer/engineer that the results already in many ways sound convincingly retro and indeed have a vibe of their own.

I'm aware that in all actuality the tape is not needed but I would still at least like to try to see what results would happen recording onto tape at the end.

I like to exhaust all possibilities.

RESONANCE

My mental ideal that I want to achieve is maximum resonance. I love the sound of my music pushed to it's limits so that the peaks seem to sing and resonate almost making the ears tickle. I like a fair bit of brightness too (almost excess treble)

Most of my stuff is 'real instruments'.

If I was going to pick one song that somes up the vibe I love it's Old Man by Niel Young of the Harvest album and the rest of the Harvest album too. Rock/folk/orchestra.


I have the 1/2 inch G16 but haven't got money for a few months to invest in more than one of the cheaper Otaris for around £100.00 to try tape on. (MX50) Just to repeat I have the G16 but am unsure whether I can make the 16 track record like a stereo two track.

If I have not replied to something please say.
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mattstollar



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PostPosted: Thu May 08, 2008 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

harsh= slightly over processed and digital sounding sometimes. But I can't quite tell whether infact it's all O.K allready or whether it needs to be softened and warmed up hence at least trying mixing down onto tape would be a very welcome experiment to put my mind at ease.

I see what you are saying about not needing tape in all probability and I understand why. However I've got to try. I think some of the songs need to sound warm.

Is there a way adding an Mp3 or two to these posts?
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