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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Jürgen Haible designs
Schulte Compact A Phasing
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Got it - thanks.

jhaible wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
Thanks!

Another question - I'm not 100% clear on how to wire up the Manual DPST. It looks like for 1 of the set of poles, one pole goes to pin 1 of Manual and the other pole goes to pin 2. Then for the other 2 poles, those are wired together and then both wired to pin 3 of Manual, which is wired to ground - is that right? Seems logically correct to me but wanted to make sure.


http://www.jhaible.heim.at/compact_clone/jh_krautrock_phaser_sch.pdf
Manual mode: Both R14 and R28 are connected to GND.
LFO mode: Neither R14 nor R28 are connected to GND.

JH.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

UPDATE - I finished my circuit tonight but I'm blowing fuses. It's because my 18VAC wall wart is 500mA, right?
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I probably haven't gotten a response because it's obvious - I'm using a wall wart with too much current. But to be honest, I don't know much about power supplies and if the current rating necessarily means that's how much current that the circuit is consuming (Ohm's law, looking at the voltage and total resistance and how that effects current along with what the current rating of the wall wart is - I don't come from an EE background and still don't fully get this aspect of analyzing the circuits I'm building), etc... So could someone verify that the reason I'm probably blowing fuses is because the wall wart is sending too much current if it's rated at 500mA and I'm using a 200mA fuse as specified in the project documentation? Greatly appreciated. I ordered another wall wart so I'll probably find out soon enough but am trying to understand as much as I can about this stuff as I build new projects. Thanks.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Ok, I probably haven't gotten a response because it's obvious - I'm using a wall wart with too much current. But to be honest, I don't know much about power supplies and if the current rating necessarily means that's how much current that the circuit is consuming (Ohm's law, looking at the voltage and total resistance and how that effects current along with what the current rating of the wall wart is - I don't come from an EE background and still don't fully get this aspect of analyzing the circuits I'm building), etc... So could someone verify that the reason I'm probably blowing fuses is because the wall wart is sending too much current if it's rated at 500mA and I'm using a 200mA fuse as specified in the project documentation? Greatly appreciated. I ordered another wall wart so I'll probably find out soon enough but am trying to understand as much as I can about this stuff as I build new projects. Thanks.


If your wallwart is capable of a higher current, this will *not* blow a fuse.
If the fuse blows, you have a short somewhere.

Do *not* use higher rated (i.e. less sensitive) fuses than the 200mA types, or the risk of damage 8before the fuse blows) will be higher.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks. Bummer. I'll look more closely but don't see any solder bridges.

jhaible wrote:
numbertalk wrote:
Ok, I probably haven't gotten a response because it's obvious - I'm using a wall wart with too much current. But to be honest, I don't know much about power supplies and if the current rating necessarily means that's how much current that the circuit is consuming (Ohm's law, looking at the voltage and total resistance and how that effects current along with what the current rating of the wall wart is - I don't come from an EE background and still don't fully get this aspect of analyzing the circuits I'm building), etc... So could someone verify that the reason I'm probably blowing fuses is because the wall wart is sending too much current if it's rated at 500mA and I'm using a 200mA fuse as specified in the project documentation? Greatly appreciated. I ordered another wall wart so I'll probably find out soon enough but am trying to understand as much as I can about this stuff as I build new projects. Thanks.


If your wallwart is capable of a higher current, this will *not* blow a fuse.
If the fuse blows, you have a short somewhere.

Do *not* use higher rated (i.e. less sensitive) fuses than the 200mA types, or the risk of damage 8before the fuse blows) will be higher.

JH.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ugh. Been over it and over it with a magnifying glass and my multimeter and can't find a short. One thing I've noticed now though is in the short time it works before the fuse blows the relay seems to stop working - when I first plug it in I hear it click, then I can click it on & off with the momentary (and the led goes on and off) but then eventually it won't respond and the led will only briefly flicker when I push the momentary button.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Ugh. Been over it and over it with a magnifying glass and my multimeter and can't find a short. One thing I've noticed now though is in the short time it works before the fuse blows the relay seems to stop working - when I first plug it in I hear it click, then I can click it on & off with the momentary (and the led goes on and off) but then eventually it won't respond and the led will only briefly flicker when I push the momentary button.


Well, a "short" doesn't mean there must be a piece of metal - it can be a faulty component (anything soldered in with the wrong orientation?).

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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norman phay



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Argh, like an idiot, I managed to smash one of the bulbs. Like an idiot, I only just bought enough for the PCBs I bought from Jurgen! Does anyone have a spare, or a couple of spares they can sell me? Thanks.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Got it! The CD4007 chip wasn't quite all the way into its socket. Noticed it seemed loose, got it in there more solidly and the relay/switching problems seem to be solved and I'm getting phasing and bypass!

Still 3 questions though:

1) What exactly should the "Modulation" knob do? Not noticing much difference with it turned up or down, though I notice a very subtle difference in sound when it's about 1/2 way up. How should it be used?

2) I had a problem with a fried IC recently and it's made me a bit paranoid. I guess I'm a little more concerned that I wouldn't know if one of the all-pass filters ICs (U8-U15) was shot - would I just get weaker phasing? What about the 2 that make up the the feedback stage (U6 & U7)? I'm guessing the resonance/feedback wouldn't work, which mine does. However, if I'm not noticing much with the modulation knob could my U7 be fried?

3) Is it normal that I notice a different voltage drop through D14 than the other diodes in the board (my multimeter tells me to expect .5V, which I am getting from all the other diodes, but I'm getting .1V for D14, even after replacing it with one I tested before soldering in)? This is just something I came across while troubleshooting today.

Thanks!!!
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 6:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Any help with those 3 questions really appreciated. Thanks.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, at this point, I'd be happy if someone could just help explain the Modulation control to me. In the research I've done on the original Compact Phasing I've read similar things - that people either aren't quite sure how to use it, that it's a bit tricky, can take some finesse and works in combination with other control(s). I'm confident mine is working because I also read something that said the effect is usually strongest around the midpoint setting, which is what I'm getting (and not sure if I'm really noticing anything at other settings).

Anyway, if someone could please give a little more explanation of what it does exactly and the best way to get results from it (how to set it and how to also set any other controls that would work in combination with it, why it's strongest around the midpoint, what turning either all the way up or all the way down does), it would be so greatly appreciated.

Also, if anyone has a scanned copy of the manual for the original Compact Phasing they wouldn't mind sharing that would be fantastic.

Thanks.
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You're typing faster than I can read. Smile

"Modulation" is the wet/dry mix. Strange label, taken straight from the original.
Only has an influence on main output - aux aoutput is always "dry".
"Dry" is only dry as long as there is no resonance. (But I think I've explained that earlier in this thread.)

So, "Modulation" should normally be set to 12 o'clock for ordinary phasing operation. At ccw end position, the effect is more like a wah-wah than a phaser.
At cw end position, you have a vibrato rather than phasing on the main output. You can get some impressive stereo effects with this by mixing the two channels in the air, from two speakers.

I don't expect a phasing with less stages when a chip is broken. Rather, no phasing at all.

D14 should never carry any stzatic forward current - it's biased in reverse and will only allow the flow of short current spikes from the relay's inductance, when the relay is switched off.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you so much! Sorry, I'm just really excited - been wanting to build this for a while and am so glad I've got it working - it's the first project of this complexity I've built so far. Smile

jhaible wrote:
You're typing faster than I can read. Smile

"Modulation" is the wet/dry mix. Strange label, taken straight from the original.
Only has an influence on main output - aux aoutput is always "dry".
"Dry" is only dry as long as there is no resonance. (But I think I've explained that earlier in this thread.)

So, "Modulation" should normally be set to 12 o'clock for ordinary phasing operation. At ccw end position, the effect is more like a wah-wah than a phaser.
At cw end position, you have a vibrato rather than phasing on the main output. You can get some impressive stereo effects with this by mixing the two channels in the air, from two speakers.

I don't expect a phasing with less stages when a chip is broken. Rather, no phasing at all.

D14 should never carry any stzatic forward current - it's biased in reverse and will only allow the flow of short current spikes from the relay's inductance, when the relay is switched off.

JH.
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I actually have a power related question. I'm using a wall wart at the moment but would like to eventually hook this up with its own AC power supply. Earlier in this thread you provided a link to a transformer at mouser you said would work:

jhaible wrote:
Several 2x18V types (described as "36V CT")

The smallest one will do:
http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Ntt=546-185C36%09


You also said:

jhaible wrote:
You need two secondary windings of 16 ... 18V - which requires 4 pins on the connector.


And this transformer does have 2 secondary windings of 18V, however it looks as though Hammond is telling me to wire this with 2 of these terminals tied up being jumped within the transformer and they don't tell me how I would tap 2 more external connections out if I needed to.

Here is a link to the wiring diagram for that transformer from the manufacturer:

http://www.hammondmfg.com/pdf/185Insert.pdf

If you look at page 2, it shows 2 wiring scenarios, in series or parallel. On page 1, it says that when the secondary winding of this transformer (#185C36) is wired in parallel it provides 18VAC. I'm assuming this is what we'd want, since the board expects an input of 18V, not 36V (which is what wiring in series would provide). However the wiring diagram for that scenario shows only 2 wires coming from the secondary winding, not 4, as the board expects. For that matter the in series wiring diagram only shows 2 wires coming off the secondary as well. Does that mean this transformer won't work? Or does it mean in addition to the jumper connections you would hook up wires leading out of those 2 other terminals as well (or would you then drop the jumper connections)? If so, as far as connecting to the board, would the wires be paired up by which of the 2 secondary windings they connect to (in other words, 1 wire from secondary winding 1 goes to pin 1, the other wire from secondary winding 1 goes to pin 2, 1 wire from secondary winding 2 goes to pin 3 then the other wire from secondary winding 2 goes to pin 4?

Sorry if this is a dumb question - still relatively new to working with power supplies. Which means, don't worry, I won't be attempting this soon Smile, but as I say, one day would like to update it, so if you don't mind explaining it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you're hesitant to reply because you don't want to be responsible for me stupidly going off half-cocked and killing myself or burning down my house by doing this the wrong way, don't worry - that is not the case. I am truly aware I am not quite ready and I'm just trying to learn - I realize I'm not ready to tackle this yet.

Under normal circumstances I would just try it myself instead of being 100% dependent on getting the info from someone. I would just try taking the 2 outs from each of the 2 secondary windings of the transformer I linked to above and hook those up in pairs to my circuit and see if that worked. But that does not seem like the wise way to learn what to do in this situation Smile So, I do feel like I'm asking possibly a dumb question but that it's not safe for me to just go and figure this out myself by trial.

Anyway, I've searched quite a bit online but I can't find anything on wiring 4 outputs from a double secondary from a transformer like this circuit requires (they all show only tapping off 2 outputs from the secondaries), so any information on how this would be done with this transformer, if I would also still need the jumper connection between the 2 secondary windings as in the manufacturer's diagram, etc... would be greatly appreciated.

Also, in an earlier thread, in terms of all of the things to consider when wiring up the power to AC mains, that one thing to keep in mind is the "length of protective earth wire compared to the other wires" - what do you mean exactly - just that it's long enough to secure to the metal chassis?

Thanks!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
If you're hesitant to reply because


Consider me offline for the next 3 weeks (see announcement thread!), even though I try to catch the occasional glance from where I am. Smile

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to know. Hope you're having a great time!
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Good to know. Hope you're having a great time!


Thank you!
A lot of sweat, but not as much discomfort or hunger than I expected. Very Happy
And I'm actually spending more time with good (non-technical) books than on the internet!

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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b-funk



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

may i suggest reading "welcome to wellville" by t.c. boyle?
just for knowing what real discomfort would be?

Wink
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 11:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

b-funk wrote:
may i suggest reading "welcome to wellville" by t.c. boyle?
just for knowing what real discomfort would be?

Wink


Hilarious stuff. I saw the movie some years ago, and I might have read the book (slightly different title?), but I'm not sure.

But I have vivid memories of another book of T . C. Boyle's, about an ageing environment activist, his experiment of surviving naked in the wilderness, and later, his daughter fixing herself to railway tracks with concrete ...

And another one, rather on the sad than funny side, about illegal immigrants in the USA.

Right now, I'm re-reading some of my old C. S. Lewis and George MacDonald stuff, and have started John Irving's "The Fourth Hand".

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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b-funk



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the story about the imigrants is called "the tortilla curtain" (the german title is "america")- you´re right, this is a really sad story, but probably the worst boyle story. his strength is defenitely absurdity. the other book you´re referring to doesn´t ring a bell...
anyway, when i was a teenager i of course was a big fan of "budding prospects" ("grün ist die hoffnung" in german) Wink
but i think that "water music" and "world´s end" are his best...

i myself started to re-read my old stansilaw lem books - his sf works and his pilosophical stuff. it looks like lems science fiction is becoming disturbingly real nowadays -> all time favorite writer, very visionary, funny, intelligent...

ok, back on topic...
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

b-funk wrote:
the story about the imigrants is called "the tortilla curtain" (the german title is "america")- you´re right, this is a really sad story, but probably the worst boyle story. his strength is defenitely absurdity. the other book you´re referring to doesn´t ring a bell...


Found it: "A Friend of the Earth"


Quote:
anyway, when i was a teenager i of course was a big fan of "budding prospects" ("grün ist die hoffnung" in german) Wink
but i think that "water music" and "world´s end" are his best...


Haven't read any of these - guess there's a lot of Boyle left for me to explore!

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

About transformers in my circuits:

(Please refer to schematics for details - I'm just giving the general scope here.)

Most of my circuits (exception: triple chorus) have a dual +/-15V supply.
In order to get this with voltage regulators, you need a higher, unregulated, dual supply (like +/-20V, with some ripple, just to give an example. Low point of ripple must be >18V, high point of ripple must be <35V.)

You can either get this from a single transformer secondary with half wave rectification, *or* from two transformer secondaries with full wave rectification. In the latter case, *each* of the two secondary windings must have the "full" voltage (as in the half wave case). Which should be something in th erange of 15V .. 18V - let's say 18V to simplify things.

The two sparate 18V windings are connected on the PCB (pins 2 and 4 of the 5-pin connector). You have to connect them such that the two voltages *add up* (measured between pin 1 and 5 of the 5-pin connector) to 36V.
If you connect them with the wrong orientation, they will add up to ca. 0V.
This doesn't cause any danger, but will throw you back to half-wave rectification, so you could as well omit one of the secondary windings.

Now, there are transformers out there, where two secondary windings are already connected together in the right way: The so-called "center-tapped" windings. It's the same thing, just looked at (and named) from a different point of view. No more two 18V windings, but one 36V winding - with a tap at the center, i.e. after the first 18 Volts.
If you have such a secondary, just connect one end of th ewinding to pin1, the center tap to pin 2 (or pin4), and the other end of the winding to pin 5.

I hope this answers all questions. Smile

And don't forget to put fuses in series with every winding. 200mA slow blow (or lower, if your transformer secondary is rated lower!) in series with every secondary, and a fuse with the rating of the transformer manufacturer's recommendation on th eprimary.

JH.

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"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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numbertalk



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the reply on the transformer.

1 more question: if I have 2 1000uf caps soldered in for using circuit with a wall wart, do I need to replace these with the 470uf caps when changing to dual secondary winding transformer - any problems with just leaving in the 1000uf caps?
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jhaible



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

numbertalk wrote:
Thanks for the reply on the transformer.

1 more question: if I have 2 1000uf caps soldered in for using circuit with a wall wart, do I need to replace these with the 470uf caps when changing to dual secondary winding transformer - any problems with just leaving in the 1000uf caps?


No - 1000u are fine.
The larger (within reason), the better.

JH.

_________________
"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours." (Mk 11,23f)
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