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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nomad - NM1 Open Source Editor
osxmidispi
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np



Joined: Oct 23, 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 7:47 am    Post subject: osxmidispi Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

First of all congratulations on the editor software, it looks like a good proof for the free open source software idea.

However, we wonder how it can be, that (at least) the java part of the osx midi spi, that you bundle with your download, happens to be 98% identical with that of mmj (apart from the package names). Whatever funny coincidence led to this probably has little to do with the aforementioned FOS idea. Even worse, it undermines the integrity of the whole project and you probably would do well in overthinking it.

Kind regards

nils
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blue hell
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Joined: Apr 03, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Welcome nils,

you seem to be the author of the mentioned mmj package, when I read things correctly?

the mmj package contains a readme.txt file stating that the software is distributed under a CC license, and it refers to this page for the license text.

In that license I read :

Code:
Namensnennung. Sie müssen den Namen des Autors/Rechteinhabers in der von ihm festgelegten Weise nennen (wodurch aber nicht der Eindruck entstehen darf, Sie oder die Nutzung des Werkes durch Sie würden entlohnt).



Code:
Weitergabe unter gleichen Bedingungen. Wenn Sie dieses Werk bearbeiten oder in anderer Weise umgestalten, verändern oder als Grundlage für ein anderes Werk verwenden, dürfen Sie das neu entstandene Werk nur unter Verwendung von Lizenzbedingungen weitergeben, die mit denen dieses Lizenzvertrages identisch oder vergleichbar sind.


The Nomad spi version can be found here and it is published under a GNU public license.

Could you point out where it is that you have a problem with the Nomad package re. the spi code?

Just to be sure, I'm not involved in the Nomad develpment, just curious as to where the problem is.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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np



Joined: Oct 23, 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The problem is, that this is just a bloody rip-off under a different name. Even if you read the CC license as a general permission to decompile a library, that you get for free but without source, and copy its code into your own one, which I do not read it like, then there is still no attribution or whatever else this very moderate CC paper asks for anywhere to be found here.
To me this is just a big disappointment and certainly does not increase my believe in "open source".

nils
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you nils, for explaining where you have a problem with the spi code, and I'm sorry to see your disappointment and anger. I'm looking forward to seeing a reaction from 'the other side'.
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julien



Joined: Dec 08, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Paris

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello Nils,

I'm part of the development team of Nomad. I initially wrote a pretty long message, but I now found that: http://ruinwesen.com/blog#post-214. I guess things are much clearer now. And the credit goes where it should go. I hope you're happy with that. If you want more details concerning this problem, you should get in direct contact with Manuel, from ruin&wesen.

I will ask Christian to remove the download link on nomad's page.

Now, a more personal comment. I would like to encourage you to switch to GPL. You could get contributions and bug fixes from users much more easily. I guess, that was the initial goal of Manuel. Maybe, you will attract other developers to help you. Furthermore, if you drop development of mmj, the code will be lost and won't be of any use to users anymore. This would be pity.

Open source will bring you many benefits and you want lose anything. And such problems, won't happen anymore.

Cheers,

Julien
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np



Joined: Oct 23, 2008
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Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Julien,
I have been in contact with Manuel and I know about that blog entry. It gets the record straight at least to a certain amount. However, I will certainly not "be happy", before both the download link to that copy cat library as well as all my involuntarily "open-sourced" code have been removed from your project pages and repositories as well as the Nomad packages.

Maybe at some point, Manuel will then also tell you the whole story, because it is especially the preface to it, that makes it disgusting to me.

In terms of my license choices / your personal comment: I was afraid, that my initial post here, would probably open the door to an endless license discussion. I am not interested in that discussion and I am not going to continue it , beyond this:
I have contributed and will continue contributing to open source software, same as I will continue to write and publish closed source stuff. Sadly, to many open source seems to just read "let somebody else do the dirty work for you" - which from your p.o.v may translate to "get others in to help you fix bugs". I absolutely do not see, how the ripping off of my code in this case would have been avoided by a GPL license. The only difference would have been, that I de facto would have agreed to it in advance. And because I do not agree, my library comes without source and is not under the license you propose.

So again: Please just respect other peoples' intellectual property - especially if you get it for free - and don't let the (moral) integrity of your great Nomad project suffer from not doing so.

nils
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wesen



Joined: May 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello,

I'm sorry for all the mess I caused, I didn't have any bad intentions of stealing code, I just wanted to have a working nomad under osx and took a few shortcuts for which I am very sorry. I later then reused our wrapper and forgot that it was mostly put up on nomad just to fix a macosx issue I had, and it is definitely my fault. I hope the issue is fixed, and this will be a very good lesson for me.

Sorry again, manuel
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julien



Joined: Dec 08, 2006
Posts: 56
Location: Paris

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello, I looked a bit more into the osxmidispi code that lies into nomad's repository. Manuel, only decompiled the java classes and recoded the C++ part, which is the hard part of such library.

I agree that decompiling the java class was not good, but, let's face it, these classes are pretty trivial, so the harm is really minimal. Furthermore, it's less than 400 lines of codes.

Anyway, the code will be removed from the repository by SF admins.

Doing all that fuss for so little is really too much. Nils, I think that you're hurting our project much more than we hurt yours, with such disproportionate attacks. So please stop here, I think it's enough.

Julien
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wesen



Joined: May 05, 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 5:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Julien, I think Nils is totally right to be upset, and this is a discussion I don't want to be leading as well (what how why where). I hope Nils is accepting my apologies and that the issue is resolved. I really just wanted to have a working nomad on osx quickly, and wrote osxmidispi to be able to quickly fix issues we were having with sysex.
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chresan



Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 150
Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nils,

I am project admin of the nmedit/nomad project. I am very sad that we have this situation now and I hope we can clean up this mess.

I will remove the osxmidispi from the sourceforge download site tonight. However, wiping the source code from CVS is going to take a few days because I have to contact the people at sourceforge and ask them to do it for me. I will post here about the progress.

Regards
Christian

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np



Joined: Oct 23, 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@Julien:
I am not talking about "harm" in any way. I don't make money with mmj and never intended to. Even more, I frankly don't care at all how many OSX midi SPIs exist on this planet from a commercial or "profilistic" standpoint. What I am talking about is solely respect and etiquette. What happened here is something, that should not happen among civilized human beings and especially should not happen in context of an sf.net open source project that waves the GPL flag. You may be into counting peas, but it really is absolutely irrelevant how many lines of code we're talking about or however trivial those might have been in a wider context.

Now on possible harm to your project: That definitely is not and has never been my intention. As I told Manuel half a year ago when we had first been in contact, you are free to bundle my library with your project and I don't want anything, neither money nor merits beyond a simple credit, for it. If you have a technical problem with it, tell me and I'll fix it. Other people and projects were able to do so and have been helped. If you think you need more control or feel the need to attach a "OSX Midi SPI implementor batch" to your list of achievements or otherwise can not accept, that there is code under licenses other than the one you prefer, then go for it and write it yourself. You know it is not rocket science, but don't use somebody else's (and sombody that you had been in a pleasant communication with before) code for it and pretend it would be yours afterwards.

I accept Manuel's apologies, but equally expect you to accept, that you made a mistake here, which you will have to bear the consequences for. It's simple as that and it's where we can stop .

nils
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chresan



Joined: Jul 11, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@nils:

Yesterday it was brought to my attention by manuel that the osxmidispi package is in violation of the license you used for mmj. He informed me about the details of the problem, later when I found out about this thread I also had a chance to get a glimpse on your position.

The more I think about it the more I see how serious the situation is. And the irony that an open source project is in the role of the perpetrator by violating another license doesn't make anything better.

I removed the osxmidispi references and downloads from our website and sourceforge download site. I also contacted the sourceforge staff and asked them to remove the source code from the CVS repository (like I said before, this might take a few days).

Apart from this I hoped there was a better way to make things right but the only other thing I can do is to hereby apologize on behalf of the nmedit/nomad project.

Personally I think you have all right to be angry at Manuel or even the whole nmedit project. However I wish you can see that no member of our project - including Manuel - had bad intentions and I hope our reactions and what we say suits you as proof.

Regarding the licensing topic which came up in this thread: Personally I think your mmj project would benefit if the source code would be publicly accessible and there are licenses which make this possible while retaining you the posibillity to distribute your project commercially if that is what you want. And as a side note, the cc faq discourages from applying a cc license on software ( http://wiki.creativecommons.org/FAQ#Can_I_use_a_Creative_Commons_license_for_software.3F )

Anyway my point is that you don't have to defend your position on this topic. We all have our reasons to prefer/chosse one license over another and none of us wants to enforce his (political?) views on you. It was your own decision to choose whatever license and we have to respect that and we surely do. In the heat of the moment it is easy to misunderstand each other but I hope things can start to cool down now.

By the way, when I first read this thread I was angry at you that you dragged this mess into the public. But now I am fine with it perhaps it is for the better to discuss things this way. I think it's always easier when one is able to speak freely. Maybe this time we got things right in the terms of an open source philosophy Very Happy


Regards

Christian

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chresan



Joined: Jul 11, 2006
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Location: Karlsruhe, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@nils:

I just got confirmation from the sourceforge staff - the osxmidispi source files[1] were removed from our CVS repository. If I don't miss anything this means we complied to all your demands.

Christian

[1] http://nmedit.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/nmedit/nmedit/libs/osxmidispi/

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np



Joined: Oct 23, 2008
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Location: Berlin, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The creation of open source software is a public process, what other place should I have chosen to express my concerns? And my concerns were really more about ethics than about bad intentions, but I think you got that by now.
So ok, I'm d'accord, let's cool down and close this

nils
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wesen



Joined: May 05, 2007
Posts: 30
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this was a good lesson for me to be a bit more careful when hacking, i never had bad intentions, thank you nils. let's close this Smile
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