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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
whats the difference in all the dividers??
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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:48 am    Post subject: whats the difference in all the dividers?? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am trying to figure out how all the different dividers are all that different. for example, doesnt a 4089 do something similar to a 4040? and doesnt the 4040 do something similar to the 4018? i know a few of the chips i have played with, you put in a clock, and you get a tone lower than the clock.

is that correct? or am i missing something. they all basically chop up the clock into a square wave of some sort right?

any clarification would be great. thanks

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:03 pm    Post subject: Re: whats the difference in all the dividers?? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
they all basically chop up the clock into a square wave of some sort right?


Yes, but there is more to to it ... I'm not quite sure what you'd like to hear, but let me try something.


-------

4018 - is a "presettable divide by N Counter"

the jam inputs can be used tp preset the counter to a certain count and the reset input can be used to clear to count to zero. On each clock it will count up and this is reflected on the outputs by shifting the output pattern a step to the right. By applying suitable feedback circuitry the division is accomplished.

---------

4040 - is a "ripple carry binary counter / divider"

A binary ripple counter has multiple outputs that are connected to an internal chain of divide by two circuits. A divide by two circuit will output pulses at half the rate of the incoming pulses. So the first output will have half the frequency of th clock, the next output will have half the frequency of taht, or a quarter of the incoming clock rate. etc.

---------

4089 - is a "binary rate multiplier"

This is a divider, but for this type the input pattern determines how many pulses will appear on the output for 16 input pulses.


=====

Intermezzo, a bit about binary numbers.

Decimal numbers use ten digits being 0 .. 9 and counting goes like 0 1 2 ... 9 10 11 .. etc.

Binary numbers use two digits only being 0 and 1. Counting now goes like 0 1 10 11 100 101 110 111 1000 ... 1111 which maps to the decimal numbers 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 .. . 15.

======

for the 4089 a binary number is applied to the rate select inputs. It has four such inputs so the numbers 0 to 15 can be put in resulting in 0 ... 15 output pulses for each 16 input pulses.

======

A pulse train that is divided by two results in a note that is precisely one octave lower than the incoming note. So the binary ripple counter (4040) can only establish octave relations between outgoing and incoming pulse trains.

A rate multiplier can establish non octave relations, like a multiplication by 12/16 or 3/4, and it runs from 1/16 to 15/16, where 1/16 would be 4 octaves lower and 15/16 would be about a semitone.

The presettable divide N counter could (but it needs some external circuitry for that) divide by 1, 2, 3, ... 10. A division of 10 would mean that for each 10 input pulses there would be one output pulse. This would result in different musical intervals again. The range of notes would resemble a flageolet sequence here, except that it would be sub harmonics rather than harmonics.

=========

Ok, I hope this was not too confusing Very Happy

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Some sound samples.

1) 4018 mode - divided by 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

2) 4098 mode - rate multiplied by 3/16, 4/16, 5/16, 6/16, 7/16. 8/16, 9/16, 10/16

3) 4040 mode - divided by 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128


dividers-3.mp3
 Description:
three different kind of rate dividers/multipliers

Download
 Filename:  dividers-3.mp3
 Filesize:  424.72 KB
 Downloaded:  812 Time(s)


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loss1234



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

wow wow wow!!!

thanks so much

this is some great info and really helped answer my questions!!

now for your samples, i hate to ask, but how did you record them? was it just a clock into each chip and then the outputs into a vco as CV or was i actually hearing the outputs of the chip tied through resistors? thats one thing i am still learning is how to actually interface the outputs of these chips.

i have had luck both creating resistor ladders (to create cv signals that have "melodies") and with giving each output its own jack. but whatever your samples did, i could certainly hear all the divisions.

great stuff

thanks so much

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

loss1234 wrote:
now for your samples, i hate to ask, but how did you record them?


Rolling Eyes I cheated a bit ... I made a Nord Modular patch to do it and I couldn't get the the rate multiplier right in it's digital form so I did something that generates the same sequence in another way (using a harmonic series directly, as that is what it does, I forgot to mention that in my first post).

I'll attach the patch, it can be used in the free G2 demo program in case you want to try that.


rates-3.pch2
 Description:
Demo patch for three different kind of rate dividers / multipliers

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 Filename:  rates-3.pch2
 Filesize:  2.25 KB
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, nice work Jan!

I've not yet had a chance to play much with the 4089 module I've made, but in initial tests it seemed to be behaving quite differently to how you (& I) had expected.... I'll check some more and report back!

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugbrand wrote:
but in initial tests it seemed to be behaving quite differently to how you (& I) had expected.... I'll check some more and report back!


Please do, I had to interpret the data sheet & may have misunderstood something.

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CJ Miller



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2008 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Some sound samples.


Wow... That was a cool demo, thank you! I am trying to finish too many old projects right now to do anything new for a little while, but I am looking forward to more of this stuff.
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm having some troubles with my divider... im running a 40106 clock signal using a 1uf cap into a 4040 clock in. I have both chips running off and grounded to a 9volt battery.

When i plug the 4040 output Q1, Q2, Q3 ect directly into my amp, i get huge volume loss, and nothing that sounds like divisions like the samples above. I assumed i'd be able to hear octave drops.

Any idea what could be going on here?

what i havent tested yet is running the Q outs into a vco of some sort.
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slacker



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The output from the 40106 clock should go straight into the clock in of the 4040, no cap in between, sorry if that's not what you meant. Also the reset pin of the 4040 needs to be connected to ground for it to work.
Then if you feed it an audio speed clock the first 2 or 3 divisions should give you different octaves, the bigger divisions will be too low to hear but you can use these to clock other things.
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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

anybody have a handle on the 4059 "divide by n" chip? seems like it's capable of any division between 3 to 15999, which would be immensely great, but i don't understand how to select the division... what are "jam inputs"??

bbob

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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bbob wrote:
anybody have a handle on the 4059 "divide by n" chip? seems like it's capable of any division between 3 to 15999, which would be immensely great, but i don't understand how to select the division... what are "jam inputs"??

bbob


That chip requires a little bit of pre-thought in working with it, it seems. I read just the beginning portions of the datasheet, that you can find here:

http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/C/D/4/0/CD4059.shtml
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

do i HAVE to ground the reset pin? You dont think leaving it as an open jack for inputs could cause different variations of the sound?

oh and the reference of the cap was just to help describe the clock speed, im not using any caps between the clock and the divider.
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:
do i HAVE to ground the reset pin? You dont think leaving it as an open jack for inputs could cause different variations of the sound?


If I'm not mistaken, all INPUTs on CMOS chips have to be either Grounded or tied to the +V input value, of the chip.

I've been following the 100k unwritten standard, for inputs that have the possibility of being taken high, as well, with no problems. Smile
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well i forked the inputs and grounded them through a 100k resistor... still nothing. Very strange.

40106 clock in ->
RESET- GROUND
Q1- 25% volume, slight changes
Q2- 25% volume, slight rhythm changes, no pitch changes
ect ect

i cant believe im so perplexed by this divider chip
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another thought here - the Q outputs from the 4040, could be being expected to put out more current than the chip itself can handle. A couple of things that you could try:

Q output through 1k resistor, to your amp. That will limit the output current from Q, to +V/1000 amps.

or

Q output into 40106 inverter, with it's output through a 1k resistor, to your amp.

See how that goes and let us know. Smile

Edit: also, does your CD4040 have a 0.1uF cap placed, as close to it's power pin as possible?
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'll try dropping a cap next to the power input and see how it goes. Then i'll try adding resistors in line with the out put jacks. I'll get back to you guys as soon as i give it a shot.
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Top Top



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
Some sound samples.

1) 4018 mode - divided by 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10

2) 4098 mode - rate multiplied by 3/16, 4/16, 5/16, 6/16, 7/16. 8/16, 9/16, 10/16

3) 4040 mode - divided by 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128



Sorry to drag this up from the depths, but I have a question about this.

I understand that the sound sample was not actually from the chips it simulated (nord mod simulation), but I am wondering if the different frequencies coming out were supposed to simulate the divided frequency outputs on the different pins?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Top Top wrote:
[...] but I am wondering if the different frequencies coming out were supposed to simulate the divided frequency outputs on the different pins?


Yes (,and for various settings in case of the rate multiplier, and various feedback paths in case of the divide by N).

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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:
well i forked the inputs and grounded them through a 100k resistor... still nothing. Very strange.


Uncle Krunkus recommended 20K resistors between the inputs and +V or GND. I don't know what the resistors are for though, I thought you could connect inputs to hi or Low dircetly.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

electri-fire wrote:
Uncle Krunkus recommended 20K resistors between the inputs and +V or GND. I don't know what the resistors are for though, I thought you could connect inputs to hi or Low dircetly.


The resistors are used to have unused pins at some defined level, it does not really matter if such resistors are 20 k, 100 k or 0k - well that has been my experienece anyway.

CMOS inputs have a very high impedance, so tiny disturbances in the electrical environment are able to send'm anywhere which can cause the parts that do have to work properly in the same package to do very odd stuff at times.

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