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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
suggest a good combo of cmos chips for me
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Joined: Feb 02, 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 8:38 am    Post subject: suggest a good combo of cmos chips for me
Subject description: that is "somewhat musical"
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My dad saw some of the stuff I've been building and asked me to make something for him for a special purpose he has... essentially he wants a little gadget that will be kind of futuristic looking and make some bleepy sounds and light up. In his words it should be "somewhat musical."

So something with a few cmos chips seems like a good option.

What I have on hand:

4007
4011
4015
4016
4017
4021
4024
4040
4093
4070
4096
40106

Some of those I only have one of.

I have a couple 4051 on the way, but it is from futurlec and who knows when it will actually arrive.

It needs to fit into something compact, so I would say no more than 4 chips. I can put a couple LDRs in there somewhere to help vary things, but generally it should run on it's own.

I'm looking for a combo that will make something that will make some tones, in a somewhat tonally related fashion and in a semi-pattern type way but without being completely repetitive.

I was messing around a little with a sequencer in my nord modular to sort of simulate using a 4017 as a tone source, and combos of the divisions of 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 7, 9 sounded somewhat musical together (when switched from one to another)... just getting something that will play with a little more variety and not just in a repetitive fashion is the question. I've not used cmos for the "self generating" type of thing much, just more for simple sequencers and oscillators...

So if you have any ideas of what to get started with, let me know.
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Draal



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 28, 2010 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This looks like a fun project that doesn't require a bunch of chips and is fairly compact. Here's the dude's website for more info.

http://www.vidiotsquad.com


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tjookum



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Minus made a really cool stripboard lay-out for the cacophonator here: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-40593.html
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ooh, nice game, "design-a-synt" with 4 IC's maximum , I'm in.


I second the use of the 4093 Schmitt-trigger NAND and a (maybe even two) 4040 Clock divider. That patternsynth is a nice basic to work with.

I'd say have at least 2 oscillators. One (or two) more from the 4093. Leaves one or two NAND gates to use elsewhere.

Could we have more restrictions please, else I get carried away with options. Like, how many pots and switches maximum?


A small patchbay? How many in/outs maximum? A rotary selector?
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: suggest a good combo of cmos chips for me
Subject description: that is "somewhat musical"
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Top Top wrote:
My dad wants a little gadget that will be kind of futuristic looking and make some bleepy sounds and light up. In his words it should be "somewhat musical."


I've had tons of good fun feeding signals through LEDs to the outputs of the oscillators.

Not to the inputs??? Indeed. I don't know why, but to the outputs works best for me. Ermm... I've done this with 40106 oscillators, but theoretically a 4093 with one of the inputs tied High should have the same functionality.

Now if you take the LEDs from that Pattern Synt out of the box you'll have your "light up" requirement covered.

(why am I writing this again?) Ah yeah, if you'd take the mixed voltage (before or after R9) and switch it (or feed it through a potmeter) to pin3 of the 4093 oscillator, the frequency of it would be modulated according to the number of LEDs attached. Thus modulating the clockspeed into the 4040, wich changes the number of LEDs attached to the oscillator output, so that changes the.... Aarrghh....
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:21 am    Post subject: auto patterns, feedback, recursion, fractal, chaos Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No matter what IC's you use, for the widest range of patterns you want the option to modulate "upstream" functions with "downstream" results.

Google: http://www.google.nl/search?q=+recursion%2C++fractal%2C++chaos+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:nl:official&client=firefox-a

(electri-fire is overwhelmed with ideas now, excuse the possibly non-logic) (His fastidious mind will force him to edit this till the cows come home, so don't worry)(Unless he forgets or gets absorbed by other subjects)

On the Schmitt-Trigger properties of the 40106 and 4093:

Schmitt-Trigger means the device (chip) will output either a Hi or a Lo state depending on the level of the input. Once a certain threshold is reached it will respond with the associated state (Hi or Lo).

So, ( still referring to the "Pattern Synt" schematic) .....


Schmitt-Triggering and feedback: Oh, and the other inputs of the 4093 are tied High now...

well, instead of tying Hi, one might feed ANY voltage into that input and let the 4093 decide whether it will do a Hi or a Lo. Combined this notion with recursion/chaos idea, and you might want to have a pot (with a select pot or Hi voltage switch) at the 4093 input that is connected to +V in the schematic.

edit: electri-fire is in hyperactive state. He needs to take a rest now and wait for comments.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

electri-fire wrote:
Ooh, nice game, "design-a-synt" with 4 IC's maximum , I'm in.


I second the use of the 4093 Schmitt-trigger NAND and a (maybe even two) 4040 Clock divider. That patternsynth is a nice basic to work with.

I'd say have at least 2 oscillators. One (or two) more from the 4093. Leaves one or two NAND gates to use elsewhere.

Could we have more restrictions please, else I get carried away with options. Like, how many pots and switches maximum?


A small patchbay? How many in/outs maximum? A rotary selector?


Baaah...! Laughing sorry, my dad probably isn't going to be into a patch bay! This thing is more of a little "prop." Though your ideas sound wonderful! The idea here is actually no switches other than maybe an on/off. The device is to appear mysterious and futuristic.

Here's what I came up with last night:



It's a 40106 audio rate oscillator clocking a 4017 with four other slow oscillators gating a 4016, which is allowing different reset points on the 4017 to come through when active (producing the different tones) - the reset points are sent through diodes to the 4016 inputs so that they don't go backwards to the other pins if two gates are active at once.

The overall output is taken from that mysterious pin on the 4017 that no one seems to use (the outputs 5-10 pin). When taken from the "1" count output pin it sounds pretty much the same, but is continuous (no breaks between notes). It can actually do a little more varied patterns and stuff, but I didn't block the LDRS that much individually in the video.

Right now I have all oscillators under LDR control. I think that is good as it allows some variety of patterns and interactivity without having knobs that will get in the way or ruin the overall appearance of the device. I'll probably be including a 386 amplifier to drive a small speaker...





hmmm... but the 4093/4040 thing has me thinking though...

maybe a 4093 clock driving a 4040 to make rhythm patterns - three divided outputs from the 4040 going back and gating the three other 4093 audio rate oscillators (maybe tuned with trims to be "somewhat musical in relation to eachother").

The three audio oscillators are then summed with diodes into the clock input on a 4017. The 4017 is having variable reset divisions gated through a 4016 (like I have now), with the gates for the 4016 being activated by some of the other unused divided outputs on the 4040. This would mean that the three tuned tones from the three 4093 audio oscillators could now be divided into octaves or 5ths or other intervals, to create more variety of notes.

Make sense? Haha... The only thing I don't like about it is that there is no "variable" element... so it is possible that it could get repetitive fast. An LDR on the clock oscillator might fix that.

That is 4 chips... plus the 386, which is only a DIP 8... I have a little enclosure planned for this already - only about 2.5" x 2.5" worth of space for the board inside... have to see if that would fit.

edit: electrifire, I think you added two posts while I was typing. "Downstream affecting upstream" is definitely something good to look at. I've patched enough modular synths to know that can lead to interesting stuff...
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 2:05 pm    Post subject: Re: suggest a good combo of cmos chips for me
Subject description: that is "somewhat musical"
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electri-fire wrote:

I've had tons of good fun feeding signals through LEDs to the outputs of the oscillators.

Not to the inputs??? Indeed. I don't know why, but to the outputs works best for me.


I have read this idea of yours elsewhere. So you are feeding a signal through an LED to the OUTPUT of an oscillator? Is that output also patched elsewhere? What is the effect of the LED? I think you mentioned gating before, but I don't really understand what this means. Maybe I'll try playing around with this LED concept and hear what happens..... any further information on this theory would be great- thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: suggest a good combo of cmos chips for me
Subject description: that is "somewhat musical"
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-minus- wrote:
electri-fire wrote:

I've had tons of good fun feeding signals through LEDs to the outputs of the oscillators.

Not to the inputs??? Indeed. I don't know why, but to the outputs works best for me.


I have read this idea of yours elsewhere. So you are feeding a signal through an LED to the OUTPUT of an oscillator? Is that output also patched elsewhere? What is the effect of the LED? I think you mentioned gating before, but I don't really understand what this means. Maybe I'll try playing around with this LED concept and hear what happens..... any further information on this theory would be great- thanks!


I would be interested to know which way the LEDs are polarized in this situation. Is it possible that it is something with the LED letting current flow only in certain situations? Above certain voltages?
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 29, 2010 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Looks like that design that Draal posted above is a lot like a derivative of the boolean sequencer. I think it is really cool how people come up with similar ideas working independently. Nice circuit.

Les

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tjookum



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 30, 2010 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I have read this idea of yours elsewhere. So you are feeding a signal through an LED to the OUTPUT of an oscillator? Is that output also patched elsewhere? What is the effect of the LED? I think you mentioned gating before, but I don't really understand what this means. Maybe I'll try playing around with this LED concept and hear what happens..... any further information on this theory would be great- thanks!


Theory? hehehe, theory is great but not for lunetta's Smile . Get 2 osc. running, place a led between the outputs and use those outputs somewhere else. Ive tried all kinds of leds in all kinds of places, sometimes great results(mostly gating) and sometimes nothing.

example:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So I tried another combo, went with electri-fire's suggested 4093 and 4040

used a 4093 to provide an oscillator and clock,

fed clock into a 4040

fed oscillator (high speed) into 4017

used a 4016, with it's four switches, each gated by a different output on the 4040, to set reset points on 4017, generating "notes" in patterns.

also used two of the outputs on the 4040 to gate my 4093 audio oscillator that is being fed into 4017, to get some rhythm patterns going with the notes instead of just a simple on off on off

I tried mixing several oscillators through diodes into the clock input on the 4017, but it wasn't working out, so I went with just 1 oscillator clocking it.

here's what I've got:




I like it... would be cool to get some more variety automated into it, but I am at my limit of 4 chips... I have been trying to think of how I can throw some more variation in using just what is there... hitting a wall...

I DO have two open NAND gates on my 4093 though... trying to think of what I can do with those.
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tjookum



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I tried mixing several oscillators through diodes into the clock input on the 4017, but it wasn't working out, so I went with just 1 oscillator clocking it.

hmm, that should work. Have you tried LED's?

Quote:
used a 4016, with it's four switches, each gated by a different output on the 4040, to set reset points on 4017, generating "notes" in patterns.

I like this idea, I think I might have to steal it Rolling Eyes

I love the simpleness of your design, maximum noise with minimum parts, keeping alive the lunetta spirit.

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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Top Top wrote:
I used a 4093 to provide an oscillator and clock, fed clock into a 4040, fed oscillator (high speed) into 4017.

I used a 4016, with it's four switches, each gated by a different output on the 4040, to set reset points on 4017, generating "notes" in patterns.


Just guessing: you have all 4016 ouputs connected to the reset of the 4017? The inputs are what? Outputs from the 4017? This setup would resemble the Melody Generator (that uses a 4051 to select what 4017 output to send to the Reset pin of the 4017). The 4051 has three inputs to select one of eight. I would prefer this above the 4016 as it would lead to more variety.


Top Top wrote:
I used a 4093 to provide an oscillator and clock, fed clock into a 4040, fed oscillator (high speed) into 4017.


The 4017 clock in is a fixed frequency. I suggest using even higher speeds from your two " Basic" oscillators, send both to a spare 4093 NAND gate and use it as the 4017 clock. (you need high speed as your NAND output is slower than either inputs)

Last edited by electri-fire on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Top Top wrote:
I tried mixing several oscillators through diodes into the clock input on the 4017, but it wasn't working out, so I went with just 1 oscillator clocking it. I like it... would be cool to get some more variety automated into it, but I am at my limit of 4 chips...



I like it too. But it sounds like it's monophonic, one single melody. Mixing through diodes (or LEDs) is especially suited before the final output. Try that with signals taken from multiple points in the circuit and you'll be able to get multiple " versions" of the pattern going on simultaniously.

The " electri-fire trick" of frequency modulation with LEDs works between any output signal AND (at least one) output of a BASIC oscillator. By BASIC I mean those that have their own timing capacitors and potmeters.
To clarify some more: NOT BASIC in this context would be any signals coming from chips without timing caps or pots. NON BASIC would for example be Gates deriving their output from multiple inputs, or signals from chips that take external clocks and contol signals.

I think this works because the time to charge (or decharge, depending on direction of the LED/diode) the timing capacitor is changed when a HI or LOW is added to the output. The LED/diodes separate the oscillators, thus preventing them to "collapse". Multiple connections to the BASIC osc output increase the effect.
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you like that, you'll still have one Gate left, heheh...
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

tjookum wrote:
Quote:
I tried mixing several oscillators through diodes into the clock input on the 4017, but it wasn't working out, so I went with just 1 oscillator clocking it.

hmm, that should work. Have you tried LED's?


Yea, I tried it with both silicon diodes and LEDs. I should say, it's not that it didn't work, but it seemed to not be clocking properly. It made a noise, but it was never a solid tone.

electri-fire wrote:
Top Top wrote:
I used a 4093 to provide an oscillator and clock, fed clock into a 4040, fed oscillator (high speed) into 4017.

I used a 4016, with it's four switches, each gated by a different output on the 4040, to set reset points on 4017, generating "notes" in patterns.


Just guessing: you have all 4016 ouputs connected to the reset of the 4017? The inputs are what? Outputs from the 4017? This setup would resemble the Melody Generator (that uses a 4051 to select what 4017 output to send to the Reset pin of the 4017). The 4051 has three inputs to select one of eight. I would prefer this above the 4016 as it would lead to more variety.


Yea, that's right, in both designs it was being used like that - different output pins on 4017 fed into the 4016 switches, fed into the reset on the 4017. It's really just the gate source for the switches that's different between the two designs (and the fact that the 4093 can be gated by the 4040 as well, while the 40106 can't.

I've seen drawings of the melody generator but haven't buit one... unfortunately, my 4051 is on it's way from asia somewhere... maybe next week.

electri-fire wrote:
Top Top wrote:
I used a 4093 to provide an oscillator and clock, fed clock into a 4040, fed oscillator (high speed) into 4017.


The 4017 clock in is a fixed frequency. I suggest using even higher speeds from your two " Basic" oscillators, send both to a spare 4093 NAND gate and use it as the 4017 clock. (you need high speed as your NAND output is slower than either input)


I'll give it a shot.

One thing though, is that will mess up my "clocking" for the rhythm and changes if I have to make the low speed oscillator clock way up above audio. I've got two NAND gates still open, so I'll just make a new oscillator and run that and the current 4017 clock into the other spare NAND and try that.

I see you've put another post up... I'll read that one and digest....
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Top Top wrote:
(On modulating the frequency into 4017 and/or 4040) /.../ that will mess up my "clocking" for the rhythm


It will actually, you'll get tempo fluctuations. For a "somewhat musical" device with minimal controls this may not be what you want.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just tried resistor mixing from a few of the output pins on the 4017, and it gives a nice change in pulse width according to what pin is being reset - some more thin and "bug like" others a more thick full square wave, also can give a sort of "harmony" sound sometimes, according to the harmonics that are present... still want to try to grab some sounds from other spots if I can... still poking around...
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electri-fire



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey TopTop, I found a cool little setup.

http://electro-music.com/forum/post-301451.html#301451

The wav I posted today used a 40106 , 4070 and 4015. You have all of those. Actually I used two 4040 as well, but you don't nescesarily need those. Just two osc's at audio rate, two at LFO rate. Well, you want to be able to go slow at least.

Oh, and it involves two diy vactrols, two LEDs and two LDRs. Has 4 pots , two sound signals.

And it leaves you with two unused XOR gates that could be put to use with the two unused 40106 oscillators to create mayhem.
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I actually finished this project - should have posted an update:




Ended up using 4093 4040 4016 4017 and managed to fit it in the enclosure.
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Rykhaard



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

FUDGE! That is farging GREAT! EX'LENT enclosure as well! Are those 3 light sensors on the one side, controlling different parameters each?

If you could get more of that enclosure, those'd prolly sell like hotcakes! (As far noise machines CAN, anyways. Wink Laughing )
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Top Top



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Rykhaard wrote:
FUDGE! That is farging GREAT! EX'LENT enclosure as well! Are those 3 light sensors on the one side, controlling different parameters each?

If you could get more of that enclosure, those'd prolly sell like hotcakes! (As far noise machines CAN, anyways. Wink Laughing )


Yea, that's correct about the light sensors - they control the audio 4017 clocking osc, the LFO clock, and a modulating oscillator. They are behind a little clear plastic gem.

I actually DO have 7 or 8 more of those enclosures. I found them at this junk/surplus store near where I used to work. I think I paid around 25 cents a piece. They were from a failed toy I think. The interesting thing about them is that as is, they have these air pressure switches on the corner - they were supposed to have tubes hooked up to them with air pads that you stomped on to activate something inside the toy. I've been trying to think of whether I could rig something up to use those switches.

I've built a few things in them already:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

And I do have plans to maybe make some money on the rest of them... note where I said "used" to work... Laughing
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Draal



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Glad to see the end result Top Top! Yep, the enclosures rock Cool
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Ajax



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 10, 2010 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey, that's pretty cool! Enclosure is awesome indeed.
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