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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
NMG2 Open Source Editor
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1155
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

too bad that the dx env dont works.. During the work on patch converter models for the gools nm1>G2 patch converter i came to limits with the pitch envelope where the G2 just couldnt do certain dx7 patches..

I wondered if this module could be the key.. but another possible key to unsolveable problems of the conversion might be Tim Kleinert,, He squeezes really quiet extreme things out of the G2.. maybe it would be worth to revisit the editor and maybe its possible to make a version that is supposed use your editor?

there the blue>red and red >blue modules could come in handy..

there was certain routines in the converter where qfingers needed to set the module state in the conversion.. red or blue..

but when you wanted to edit such a patch the module state got lost on dsp recalculation and the patch changed its sound..

here might be a solution with theese extra modules.. at least one could repair such uneditable conversion patches with theese modules manually..

So it would be good to enable them.

greets Sven
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1155
Location: Berlin
Audio files: 13
G2 patch files: 138

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

that the dsp/mem allocation dont works is a draw back..

can one of the dsp experts in the forum maybe help? maybe its something specific to the chip itself?

on the editor gui the selection cheme of the modules is a bit more stiff than on the original editor that is in this regard worse than the NM1 editor anyway..

I wonder if a multi selection add function/window would be possible.. so when you select the multi add a window pops up that has all modules shown at once.. and each time you click left a litlle counter next to a module counts up.. and clicking right counts down..... or maybr better shift click counts down..

and than you execute and your "shopping list" of modules gets inserted in the slot in one go..

just an idea.. I still miss that yo was able to see all modules on the nm1.. that had some serendipity fx when looking on the screen while puzzeling on a patch problem..
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brunov



Joined: Aug 03, 2011
Posts: 212
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can build a new version with the bluetored/redtoblue modules put in.

The dx7 env I tried several times, but I couldn't get it to show up. They probably left it out of the latest g2 firmware.

I used the dx7->g2 converter quite a lot, works very nice.

The extra module selection menu that you propose is also certainly possible, but because it's an user-interface change, I'd rather wait and build it in the new user interface.

And about the memory/cycles. Every time a change message is send to the G2, for example adding a module or cable, it responds by returning a message with the new patchload memory/cycles. It's message with id $72 I believe, it shoud show up in the log file.

The problem is how to interpret the message. It's a bunch of numbers that have to be added or multiplied a certain way to represent the two numbers memory & cycles.

I tried by comparing the messages by succesively adding multiples of a certain module, to see wich numbers change. For example compare the message when adding one OSCA, then adding another OscA, compare the numbers, adding another one, comparing etc.

So eventually I could recognize certain numbers that should represent delay memory for example, but I haven't solved the puzzle yet. It's a complicated one.

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My old OS NMG2 editor : http://sourceforge.net/projects/nmg2editor/?source=directory
My new G2 editor FMX : http://www.bverhue.nl/g2dev/?page_id=17
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1155
Location: Berlin
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G2 patch files: 138

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hm.. difficult.. is qfingers the author of the patchconverter still around here? maybe he has an idea?
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
Posts: 1155
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G2 patch files: 138

PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

is it maybe possible to display that load message from the g2 permanently? maybe one of the users of the editor gets an idea how to decode it?

would be also interesting to see if specific patchloads give specific numbers..

so 100/0, 0/100 and 100/100.

ups..memory zero but dsp max is not really possible :-/


anyway.. its definitely possible that certain numbers address stats the original editor just dont shows..like a cable or module count or so..
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brunov



Joined: Aug 03, 2011
Posts: 212
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could make them permanently visible, but personally I think it's more practical to use the log for analyzing the message, because you'll want to copy/paste them to excel or something to compare and to analyze them.

On the application settings is a a checkbox for enabling the log. And on the log window is a knob to refresh the log.

I think I have an excel file somewhere with some examples, I'll post it when I find it. Maybe you'll have som idea's how to interpret te numbers...

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My new G2 editor FMX : http://www.bverhue.nl/g2dev/?page_id=17
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brunov



Joined: Aug 03, 2011
Posts: 212
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, so here is tonight's little puzzle:

I've made a screenshot of the logfile after adding a single 2-Out module.

The first message you see is the message for adding a module. It has message ID $29, the fourth byte.

Then there is a reply from the G2, in my opion it's a sort of Ok message (adding module succeeded)

Then there follow 4 additional reply messages from the G2 with ID $72. These are the "resources used" messages for 4 slots. Each message is in two parts, the first is for the VA section and the second for the FX section.

So I added the 2-Out in slot B in the VA section. The resources used message for this section contains 27 bytes.

The second screenshot is an excel containing the results of a number of test configurations. The 27 bytes for each test is a column. At the bottom I added the "Cycles" and "Memory" as shown in the original editor.

So the first column is one 2-Out module, the second is two 2-Out modules, the third is 1 Keyb module, and so on.

Then I figured some bytes should be taken together as representing one resource. For example byte 1 and 2. These are the gray Total rows.

The question is how to calculate the Cycles and Memory values from the 27 bytes.

Here are some idea's I have:
- Resource10 represents delay memory
- The keyb module doesn't use processor cycles, so Resource 3 represents some kind of memory usage.
- The 2-Out module in column one, resource 1 and 4 seem to be mirrored in resource 5 and 6.
- Compared with Mix4-1a, which has mainly inputs in stead of outputs, resource 2 is mirrored in resource 9.

Who is able to shed some light on this ???


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Resource table v1.xls
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_________________
My old OS NMG2 editor : http://sourceforge.net/projects/nmg2editor/?source=directory
My new G2 editor FMX : http://www.bverhue.nl/g2dev/?page_id=17
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varice



Joined: Dec 29, 2004
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are at least two different types of memory usage, one is Zero Page memory (e. g. for the storage of output values of each module in a patch), and RAM used for long digital signal delays and other FX.

Since you can run out of either memory resource before the other, the Editor apparently compares the usage of each type and displays the greatest usage value of either type.

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brunov



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, thanks.

So resource 3 could represent zero page memory, since the Keyb module has no cycles and no delay mem. It also has exactly 6 outputs as the number shows.

2-Out has no ouputs, so that fits also.

Mixer modules and delay show a 1, that fits also.

But the OscA's show a 3 for 1xOsc, a 4 for 2xOsc, a 5 for 3xOsc... Why would they use more zero page mem?

I suppose you don't need memory for inputs, it just reads the output memory of the connected modules.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also the NM Classic used X and Y memory. Hmm .. Classic editor wont connect right now or I'd show you a screen shot ... prolly used the MIDI ports elsewhere Confused It has a resource monitor screen where some more stuff can be seen.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, it was on another device ... here it is :


Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

pva maps to G2 VA and cva to G2 FX area.

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brunov



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jan, can you explain what X Y memory is and what modules would make use of it?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What I've seen on DSP docs X and Y memory are meant to be used for coefficients in multiply-add instructions, the idea of having two separate memories being they can be accessed at the same time by the ALU ... as such I'd expect it to be used on filters and maybe oscillators ...

I'll run some experiments on the Classic to see what uses it there.

edit: Oh wait, I prolly already did that .... yup!

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
edit: Oh wait, I prolly already did that .... yup!


rectification ~ please read we for I as Urs Liska, Nicolas Fournel, Christer Lindström and Wout Blommers contributed to this as well.

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brunov



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, thanks to all then Smile

The list gives some clues about what some of the numbers may mean, but it also raises some new questions:

For example, when I compare the keyboard module from the nm1 with the nm2:

The nm1 keyboard has 4 outputs: 3 blue and 1 yellow.
Memory usage: 3 zero page, 1 dynamic

The nm2 keyboard has 6 outputs
Resource 3 is 6, which I thought must be zero page memory, but could also be zero page + dynamic Question

Pffffffff... difficult!

Maybe the trick is to find some more of the special modules, that have zero cycle usage, or zero memoy usage of a certain kind, like keyboard and constant and...

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My new G2 editor FMX : http://www.bverhue.nl/g2dev/?page_id=17
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi,
i dont get any feedback from the log window.. it only shows me this text:


G2 usb demo

This software is intended for educational/research purposes, use at your own risk!

This demo uses the open source libusb-win32 usb driver.

Download libusb-win32 snapshot from
http://sourceforge.net/projects/libusb-win32/files/
Make a system restore point
Install as a filter driver on the existing clavia usb driver
Do NOT install as device driver (because it then permanently replaces the clavia driver!)

After you installed the filter driver, test if the clavia software still works. If not, do a system restore.

The demo can not run alongside the clavia software, before you run the one you have to stop the other.
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brunov



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is the text I've put in as a default, but as soon as the editor connects it should replace it with something like this:

Initializing connection.
Started as server.
g2udev handle = 0000
Starting server tcp-ip thread.
initializing usb.
USB Get endpoints
g2iin = 129, g2bin = 130, g2bout = 3
Opening USB Device
LibUSB-win32 driver version : 1.2.6.0
Set USB Configuration
Claim USB Interface
g2udev handle = A98E38
starting message threads.


Does it connect with the g2? How dit installing the libusb filter driver go?

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My new G2 editor FMX : http://www.bverhue.nl/g2dev/?page_id=17
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the original editor dont wors anymore and yours says zero clients but works
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brunov



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sven,

I hope you followed the install instructions for the libusb carefully, because it is very important that you install the libusb driver as a Filter driver on top of the existing clavia driver, NOT as a device driver.

If you install it as a device driver the libusb replaces the clavia driver, so the original editor doesn't work anymore. You should uninstall the libsub device driver then, or, if that doesn't work do a windows restore.

If you did install it as a filter driver, then you must realize that the two editors cannot run simultaneously. Or that the communication goes out of sync after you used one or the other. In that case you only have to reset the g2.

The filter driver mode of libusb is really a testing/debugging tool, it sits on top of the clavia driver. It's necessary for the os editor because I haven't found a way to access the clavia driver directly.

Hope this helps, please read the help for installing libusb carefully.

Let me know how things go!

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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

brunov wrote:
Sven,

I
Hope this helps, please read the help for installing libusb carefully.

Let me know how things go!


what help file?
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brunov



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's in the install dir, or else you can read it here:

http://www.bverhue.nl/G2EditorHelp/NMG2_Open_source_editor_help.html


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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks.. i did that the very first time amnds now again.. but the editor dont sees the g2..

what shall i do?

last time i used the fprbidden wizzard at this point wish replaced the g2 driver but allowed to try the editor and the new resonator module..

really shit that clavia hasnt finished them.. sound nice..
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brunov



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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Strange. Does the original editor work ok again?

Maybe you try the following:

-> close the clavia editor
-> reset G2
-> start the os editor-
> what message appears, could be
"libusb... not found, USB functions are disabled",
or "no g2 found"

If you get the first message then the libusb filter driver is not correctly installed.

-> does the editor "freeze" when starting up?
-> what version of the os-editor did you download.

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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it says no g2 found and the old editor works
i use version 0.25

and no freeze
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3phase



Joined: Jul 27, 2004
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ok.. i gave up on the original editor for the moment. i only get it working by ovrwriting the g2 driver :-/ the log window needed to get enabled in the application settings.

i collected some data to see which data bytes give the dsp usage values but while it is possible to see areas that corelate with the mem and cycles settings the numerical value decoding is quiete hard..

maybe somebody has an idea what counting method is used here? or likes to add data?

i broke down the data package of 64 words in a 16 word strings that gets send after a patch modification to 2 strings..

each containig 27 words ..

same usage values in VA and FX area result in identical strings and word 23-25 give the delay memory use.. no othe insights yet..

i post my 2 lists..as start point for others to continue the puzzle


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