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2 cascaded 4017s problems
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xiphocoleon



Joined: Oct 04, 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:56 am    Post subject: 2 cascaded 4017s problems
Subject description: Counters are not counting correctly
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Hi everyone -- I have created an 8-step sequencer from 2 cascaded 4017s. The bread-boarded version of this circuit works. However, after soldering this together (through-hole, DIP style) on a very small board, the circuit is producing glitchy behavior. Now, after four straight days of checking all the connections, replacing the chips, and resoldering some nodes, I'm really stuck as to what could be going wrong. If you have worked with 4017s, 4049s, or op-amp inputs to circuits, could you offer me troubleshooting advice?

I have checked these chips in the working prototyped version, so let's assume the chips work fine. The 4017s are 4017BE.

At this point, the fishiest area is the clock signal. The clock leaves the 324 with a 0 to +10 V pulse, which on the prototype is enough voltage to make the 4017 count. However, when connected to the 4017, the 0 to +10 V pulse sometimes is "crushed" -- it looks like something is pulling current away from the Clock pin on the 4017. I have checked all nodes on my soldered board with a connectivity checker, and I have not found any nodes accidentally soldered together.

If you could please check the attached schematic and give me troubleshooting tips from your own experience that would be helpful. I am also wondering if the close proximity of the chips is causing the chips to interfere with each other. Also, I have heard that placing a 0.1 uF cap across V and GND for each 4017 is a good idea to reduce counting glitches. Thank you.

If possible I'll also post a picture of my crowded soldered board.


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xiphocoleon



Joined: Oct 04, 2013
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:11 pm    Post subject: pictures of soldered circuit Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Attached are images of the physical circuit I've soldered together. Maybe by seeing the physical thing you can get a sense of if I've crowded the components too close together...


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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I see 2 things that could be a problem.
The transistor connected to the clock should have a resistor connected between the base and ouput of the opamp.
And the emitter of the transistor connected directly to gnd with the LED connected between the collecter and series resistor (R9).

The other thing is that you have some outputs connected together:
IC3E & IC4C
IC4B & Q8 of 4017A

Decoupling capacitors for every chip is always a good idea and can make the difference between a circuit functioning correctly or not.
Depending on what you're using it for you might want to buffer the CV outputs with an opamp.

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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you so much PHOBoS for checking this out. I've been going a little craaaazy picking this thing apart... Smile Also, for background, I started this design with this schematic: http://electro-music.com/forum/phpbb-files/thumbs/t_16_step_4017_247.png

PHOBoS wrote:

The transistor connected to the clock should have a resistor connected between the base and ouput of the opamp.
And the emitter of the transistor connected directly to gnd with the LED connected between the collecter and series resistor (R9).


Oops, I forgot to include it here, but I used a 1 Mohm resistor from pin 14 to the transistor base. However, for the second comment here, are you suggesting a resistor b/t base and emitter? Or?

PHOBoS wrote:

The other thing is that you have some outputs connected together:
IC3E & IC4C


Right now if I leave these together, a voltage can trigger a 4017A reset. However, is this not a good design for that? For instance, since pin 15 of 4017A needs to be connected to the output of IC3E, is it a bad idea to allow an op amp output to connect here also?

PHOBoS wrote:

IC4B & Q8 of 4017A


Here I think it is correct to connect these together. This way CE is low for 4017A, allowing it to count. When Q8 goes high, this will stop 4017A counting and through IC4B it will make 4017B's CE low, allowing it to count. What do you think?

Thanks again!

I also included another shot of the crowded board.


20140820_150024.jpg
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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: faceplate Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also, here's the faceplate I had printed Smile Would be nice if the circuit behind it worked.


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AlanP



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 20, 2014 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No idea on the issues, but is there any reason why you are using two 4017's, rather than one using the Q0 to Q7 outputs, with Q8 going to Reset?
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

With CMOS you usually don't want any outputs connected to other outputs, including opamps.
If one output goes low and the other high you're basically shorting the power through the chips.
You can avoid this by using an OR gate which can be made with some diodes and a resistor.
I've redrawn the schematic with the changes that should make it work, I left the component values out, since those seem ok.

I'm not sure how you want the envelope part to work,. but I expect it's a reason why you're using 2 4017's and skipping every other output.
However I think the same thing could be achieved with just 1 4017 and 2 flipflops.
And I would use a summing amp to mix CV out from the sequencer with the master pitch, modulation and AR voltages.
But maybe this already works exactly as you want it.

Panel looks great! btw Very Happy


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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

AlanP wrote:
No idea on the issues, but is there any reason why you are using two 4017's, rather than one using the Q0 to Q7 outputs, with Q8 going to Reset?


My goal was to get 8 separate gates from a 4017 circuit. As far as I've tried, I can only get one long, continuous gate (with 8 discrete voltage changes) from one 4017. By using two 4017s and only using every other count, I could get 8 separate gates. Basically, as a pitch control for a modular synth VCO, I could create separate notes, instead of one long sliding glissando sound.

What do you think? Can you get 8 separate gates from a 4017?

Thanks.

Thomas
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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:
With CMOS you usually don't want any outputs connected to other outputs, including opamps.
If one output goes low and the other high you're basically shorting the power through the chips.
You can avoid this by using an OR gate which can be made with some diodes and a resistor.


Thank you so much for this tip.

PHOBoS wrote:

I'm not sure how you want the envelope part to work,. but I expect it's a reason why you're using 2 4017's and skipping every other output.
However I think the same thing could be achieved with just 1 4017 and 2 flipflops.


Yes, with the separate gates, when the envelope turns on it adds attack and release to the gates, basically makes the pitches sound all warped out. I would like to look into the one 4017 and 2 flip flops design.

PHOBoS wrote:

And I would use a summing amp to mix CV out from the sequencer with the master pitch, modulation and AR voltages.
But maybe this already works exactly as you want it.


This would probably be a good idea to protect the circuitry behind this output, even if it's already well-defended enough behind diodes. I do have an extra op-amp left on my 324.

And the Canal Street Plastics in NYC printed my panel in less than 12 hours. Definitely recommend them.
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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also, do you have recommendations for diodes, for instance the ones used connected to the 4017? I have weird experiences with diodes. For this type of signal here I'd probably use 1N914s because I have many on hand, but sometimes only "rectifier" (not sure if that's the right categorization) diodes (4003, 4004) work. For instance, I've found in the envelope circuit here that I've made, 4003s work best.
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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And, from Ud4 (in your schematic) do you think there should be a diode from the op-amp output to the 4017 clock?
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xiphocoleon wrote:
Yes, with the separate gates, when the envelope turns on it adds attack and release to the gates, basically makes the pitches sound all warped out.

ah yes that's what it looks like it would do Smile

Quote:
What do you think? Can you get 8 separate gates from a 4017?

Quote:
I would like to look into the one 4017 and 2 flip flops design.


You can get seperate gates by using AND gates after the outputs and add the CLOCK signal to them.
If you do this the outputs will only be high as long as the CLOCK is high.
By adding the CLOCk to a flip flop first you will have a 50/50 duty cycle so on/off times will be equal,
but it will run at half the speed (which is the same effect you have now).

You would still need the AND gates but since you're mixing all the outputs together I think it might be
possible to do this with just 1 gate, maybe a flip flop can be used for this. (since you'll get at least 2 in one chip).
I'm not sure about it yet, but I'll see if I can come up with a way to do it. Cool

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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xiphocoleon wrote:
Also, do you have recommendations for diodes, for instance the ones used connected to the 4017?

Pretty much all standard diodes except for zenerdiodes should work. I usually use 1N4148 but 1N914 or 1N400x should be fine too.

xiphocoleon wrote:
And, from Ud4 (in your schematic) do you think there should be a diode from the op-amp output to the 4017 clock?

There is no other (output) signal connected to that ouput, so that's not needed.

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elmegil



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xiphocoleon wrote:
AlanP wrote:
No idea on the issues, but is there any reason why you are using two 4017's, rather than one using the Q0 to Q7 outputs, with Q8 going to Reset?


My goal was to get 8 separate gates from a 4017 circuit. As far as I've tried, I can only get one long, continuous gate (with 8 discrete voltage changes) from one 4017. By using two 4017s and only using every other count, I could get 8 separate gates. Basically, as a pitch control for a modular synth VCO, I could create separate notes, instead of one long sliding glissando sound.


That's a cool idea.

The way I skinned this cat was to do clock AND gate to generate discrete gates, but that is limited to the length of your clock signal. So a second 4017, an extra AND gate chip.... come se come sa.
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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I reworked my circuit and redid it with the diodes in the newest schematic. It all works so far!

...except the first step will not trigger! ......... Sad

I think this is a common problem. It has something to do with the timing of the clock.

I have found that if I put a low resistor (10k or less) b/t 4017A's 15 (reset) and ground on my perfectly working breadboard prototype, I can also get the first step not to trigger. However, when I remove the 10k resistor b/t 15 and ground on the soldered circuit it does not fix the problem.

I have scoped the clock signals. They enter both my prototype and soldered circuit at the same speed. However, the soldered circuit sends out pulses that are slightly longer than the protoype version. And this is causing a timing overlap so the first step will not trigger. Any ideas why this is happening? I have put decoupling caps on both 4017s and the 4049. Could this affect it? There is also a polarized cap on the board near 4017A pin 15. Could this affect it?

Thanks.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, so I don't think the 2 flipflop thing is gonna work. Rolling Eyes The problem is the voltage coming from the pots, for which you would need an
analogue switch or mux (maybe a single FET could do it). And then you'd still need to divide the clock so that's 2 chips already, so you might aswell use the
2 4017's and 4049. Cool

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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The circuit I'm working with is the 2 4017s and 4049. No flip flops. It is basically the original circuit I started with, but I added the diodes and op amp that you drew in the post a couple back.

And this works on the breadboard.

But, on the soldered circuit it skips step one on 4017A (Q0/pin 3).

Anyone have ideas on how to fix this?
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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah! I solved it with a 100k resistor b/t pin 15 of 4017B and pin 3 of 4017A. I will post my completed schematic here (after I clean up my mess) for anyone else to try.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I tried breadboarding it to see what happens, and got the same problem (skipping the first output).
So I started disconnecting everything from the first 4017 but it kept skipping the first step. Shocked
Untill I tied pin 13 directly to GND instead of through a 100K resistor, then it worked.
So I reduced the value and 10K seems to do it.

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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2014 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am going to start a new thread and post my finished schematic and pic of my rig Smile
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prgdeltablues



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's a circuit over on muffwigglers to sort out the problem of skipping the first step on a 4017, especially on reset. Might be what you need:

http://www.muffwiggler.com/forum/topic-61355-20.html&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=3a5478d0b27d0eca381695e176a75959

Peter
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xiphocoleon



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

prgdeltablues wrote:
There's a circuit over on muffwigglers to sort out the problem of skipping the first step on a 4017, especially on reset. Might be what you need:


Thanks for posting this. Yes, they seem to be discussing my problem. The buffer created by two inverters was possibly causing my circuit to malfunction.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2014 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:
xiphocoleon wrote:
Quote:
What do you think? Can you get 8 separate gates from a 4017?
You can get seperate gates by using AND gates after the outputs and add the CLOCK signal to them.
If you do this the outputs will only be high as long as the CLOCK is high.

this is not necessarily a drawback. it is rather a feature than a bug IMHO:
use a PWM clock and drive an AR or LPG with your sequencer - the sequence will come to life.

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