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The new 9v SDIY beginners standard?
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Ray_Ketamu



Joined: Nov 03, 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:33 pm    Post subject:  The new 9v SDIY beginners standard?
Subject description: About creating a subforum for 9v circuits only... mostly beginners
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Hi there,
i have not been into sdiy for very long and constantly learning. what hindered me at first to go into this fantastic world of building and constructing your own electronic instruments where the complicated scematics. i mean i am a real beginner... not so much anymore, thanks to nicholas an some stompboxes but still there is a long way infront of me.
What really helped me was the 9v battery based design nicholas has put up in the forum and i thought: hey you could build that. it not an jürgen haible or ken stone... so i started to educate myself with youtube, reading and so on.

What i mean is that this designs (i found some further lose scematics in the net and here) could make the learning curve for real newbies in electronics like me, less frigthening. you can be more careless in the beginning and can improve step by step. even some diy stompboxes can easily be implied in the projects i am doing right now and i am allready working on a cv/hz arduino keyboard for nicholas design... It´s fun, you can learn and invent!

There should be an subforum dedicated to 9v synths Standart !

move all nicholas related links to it, eric archers 9v lpf, tons of links to stompbox scematics (that could easily be translated to a synth effect), tube amp vca`s in 9v...

You get what i am saying? being a greenhorn is overwhelming. giving the greenhorns a forum on their own to build until they turn raving mad would be so deligthfull indeed. in the end they would be wiser and could turn to the more comlicated matters. but until then its and building, bending, adding and breaking... without getting blown up

cheers Ansgar

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Last edited by Ray_Ketamu on Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm ok .. we could try that.

I'd need a name and a short description to make such a sub forum.

It would not make sense to me to move stuff over ... but links could work too I think. There would have to be someone in charge to do that of course.

A possible alternative would be to use the wiki here, that would not allow for discussion, but could arrange the links nicely.

Or could do both Cool

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Ray_Ketamu



Joined: Nov 03, 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

both would be good i think. sometimes it´s just the overwhelming amount of info that stops you from getting started. i allready made a collection of all forum entrys from nicholas regarding his designs in form of text with pics and could put them up for download so there would be no need to search other related posts to find his stuff. ofcourse i have to send it to him so he can approve it.

also i have some schematic from a stompbox with ms-20 filters that would suit the thing. and the eric archer filter has some links i have to collect. there is also a pcb for it flying around in the forum.

perhaps its just me.
it would be unnecessary to create a subforum for just one.
i hope there are some more out there!
speak up greenhorns! Wink

cheers ansgar

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is already the Lunetta forum. Have you had a look in there? Most of that stuff can be made with a 9V supply.

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-42772.html

I think that the reason it has never been made is that most people either build a Lunetta synth or build something with a dual rail power supply.

Those schematics seem confusing now, but in time they will seem very simple. I would recommend working on Lunetta synths to learn, and then you can start moving up to more complicated projects.
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Ray_Ketamu



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yeah i had a lock at it. the fact is i am an artist and musician who didn´t really paid attention at school. google every single word mentioned was very exhausting. now i am a little more into the thing. i can partially read schematics and nearly grasp what is happening. but in the very beginning even the lunetta seemed as high as a mountain. well now i got the hang of it and started learning basic electronic laws and have all the circuit symbols on my desktop. maybe i will do a collection of stuff and make a download in a topic for beginners from an beginner when im over with the worst.

the stuff nicholas provided was really helpfull just ito get some hardware stuff to do and i found other stuff on the web that really fitted into the whole thing and where easy to build.
so i thought. maybe others (not so advanced as the rest of the community)
had the same problem and would like to build the stuff. the beginners stuff is all a bit spread over the forum at the moment and i only got here by external link after months of search.

in the moment my desk is filled with parts and printed out plans. i cant wait to learn more... i am planning an arduino controlled analog filterbank for my pc and even bought my first multimeter (second just to compare will come later ofcourse).

but the way there was soooo sh*tty.

just thougth it would be neat to have an easy to learn 9v based synth format... next to the 12v or 15v. small but neat.

anyhow its wonderfull to see your stuff and what you guys do and all the nerd talk in here but in the beginning it was like me: zulu - you guys: latin Wink

well perhaps there will be some greenhorns coming and say: that 9v format would be awesome... or not. then i will do my little topic and thats it

cheers ansgar

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commathe



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been slowly working on a 9V synth building guide, but it's probably going to be a little while longer before it is really ready for public consumption. It is very lunetta influenced.

http://castlerocktronics.com/modular.html
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Ray_Ketamu



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So very awesome! you got an shift register too! really cool! i will definetly build those modules!
Will add them to those i build from nicolas. hope they are nice to each other when playing.

You got at least one person eagerly waiting for more.

keep it up!

cheers ansgar

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ray_Ketamu wrote:
hope they are nice to each other when playing

They won't be. There is a difference that must be taken into account.

Although Nicholas' circuits are powered by 9volts they are not single-supply. The 9V gets split into +/-4.5V. Consequently, Gnd (0V) in a Nicholas circuit isn't the same as Gnd (0V) in a single-supply 9V design, such as the Q&D VCF. The latter type of circuit uses a Vref of 1/2 the supply voltage, usually inaccurately called Virtual Ground.

So if there's going to be a 9V format, which should it be? Nicholas', which is truely bi-polar, or single-supply? The two can't easily be mixed.

Richard (nervously waits for Scott to notice this thread Laughing )

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commathe



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the advantages to 9V come from using it with other gear (guitar effects). Beginners don't want to worry about the difference between virtual ground and Vref so it's be better to use Vref based circuits. That's my two cents anyway.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

richardc64 wrote:
Richard (nervously waits for Scott to notice this thread Laughing )


Without a schematic to reference, I really can't say anything specific.

However, there are generally three types of supplies used by folks here on electro-music.com. Think of them this way:

A dual 9 volt battery in series. In this one, the total number of volts is 18. But there is a node of connection between the two batteries which forms the ground. This type of PSU creates a real ground.

A single 9 volt battery with it's 9v and 0v terminals and a regulator that supplies (probably) 4.5 volts referenced to the battery's zero volt terminal. This is a dual supply and has a real ground.

A single 9 volt battery with a resistor divider across the 9v terminals. If the resistors are equal, the central connection node is at 4.5 volts from either terminal. This creates a virtual ground. It can be enhanced with an opamp, but that just makes it little beefier - but not equivalent to a real ground.

In all of these cases, the battery can be replaced by a raw DC supply and regulator(s).

Is the regulator method the Nicholas PSU to which you refer? In this case, it would be a true dual supply because the battery roughly models a regulator itself.

We should be aware of the advantages and disadvantages of all 3.

dual 9 volt dual supply:
Advantage: Adequate ground stability. Least wasted current.
Disadvantage: Uses 2 batteries.

single 9 volt battery with regulator:
Advantages: Single 9 volt battery. Adequate ground stability.
Disadvantage: Some current drawn by the regulator itself (somewhat shorter battery life). Low headroom.

single 9 volt battery with virtual ground:
Advantage: Single 9 volt battery.
Disadvantage: Some current drawn by voltage divider (and if used opamp stabilizer), high impedance ground causing noise propagation, floating or moving ground. Low headroom.

All three have their uses, but it's important to understand when to use one over the other. The one to be most wary of is the virtual ground. It is best employed when the ground is needed as a reference voltage only - that is - where no current is sunk or sourced from the virtual ground. Sinking and sourcing from the virtual ground terminal is what causes the instability. Caps and opamp can help, but only to a point. Most opamps don't like to supply a lot of current via the output. The TL072 doesn't indicate output current directly, but it does have a spec for supply current for each amp at less than 2 mA, so it's easy to assume that output current will be less than that.

One of the issues to consider before starting a design project is how well thought out the project is before the schematic stage. If you plan to design by adding bits at a time, the virtual ground is an alligator waiting just below the surface. As you add circuit bits, you begin to source or sink more and more current and eventually, the circuit will become unstable or noisy or just quit working. If this is your environment, you'll be better off avoiding the virtual ground method.

Headroom is also a consideration. Opamps are not truly rail to rail (except for some rather expensive ones), even ones that say they are rail to rail (like LM324) admit in their own datasheet that the device cannot touch at least one of the rails. For LM324, it can reach very close to the negative supply terminal - close enough to say "the rail". But it also says that it can't come within 1.5 volts of the positive rail. Some opamps can have problems when they get too close to a rail - such as output reversal (which means that when the output should be say 12 volts, it snaps to -12) or latch up (these conditions usually require a power cycle to stop).

In my opinion, 4.5 volts of headroom is just not enough, so I won't use either the regulator method nor the virtual ground except where I where I don't need the headroom. For audio applications, dual 9 volt batteries give a rather nice 9 volts of headroom from ground to either rail which means you can easily have a 14 volt output swing and not cause trouble with opamps.

These reasons are why modulars are always built with beefy supplies that have larger voltages like +/- 15 or +/- 12. These larger voltages allow the circuits to work much farther from the noise floor and result in cleaner circuits.

If I were to propose a "standard" for low voltage audio, it would be two 9 volt batteries in series.

However, in audio electronics, especially synth circuits, standards are like opinions (which are like butt holes) - everyone has one. I generally ignore the idea of a standard. In my dsPIC work, for audio, I use +/- 8 volt regulators because I can get +3.3v from the +8 reg and it can all run from one 1000mA 9 volt AC wall wart. +/- 8 runs the opamps I use and there's plenty of headroom since I'm amplifying signals in the less than 3 volt peak to peak range, but I get line level outputs.

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richardc64



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

commathe wrote:
I think the advantages to 9V come from using it with other gear (guitar effects).

I agree, plus it blends well with Lunetta stuff, which typically doesn't need a negative supply voltage.

On the other hand, to be capable of interfacing with Nicholas' designs, any dual-supply circuits would only need to be "scaled down" to the lower supply voltages.

(Written while Scott posted his thought-filled contribution.)

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commathe



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Basing a standard on a handful of designs that may not be incorporated by future users would be a little shortsighted I think.

Personally, lunettas are the way to go for beginner building. That's why I'm working on such a heavily lunetta influenced system for beginners.
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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 10:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

commathe wrote:
Basing a standard on a handful of designs that may not be incorporated by future users would be a little shortsighted I think.

Personally, lunettas are the way to go for beginner building. That's why I'm working on such a heavily lunetta influenced system for beginners.


That's one of the reasons PSU standards (which have been proposed many times over the decades) have failed to stick.

PSU design is related far more to the design of the working circuit than it is to anything else. Each different circuit has a different purpose and different needs. Assuming a single standard PSU type may work for some or even a lot of circuits, but not all of them. So design the supply to properly power the specific circuit in question.

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Ray_Ketamu



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

O_o thank you indeed. now many things come clear... and many more things don´t. but i get it. partially. well it was just a thougth and if i had your knowledge i might not have posted in the beginning

thanx for the explanation of the three 9v types. didn´t knew the difference in ground there.
well i will stick to my nicholas boards until i am ready for the lunetta range.

nice replys! like the community here!

cheers ansgar

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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's a great subject to discuss, so it's good you brought it up.

Others too may see this and have better luck with their designs.

There are no bad questions except for the ones you don't ask...

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Ray_Ketamu



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Smile
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Starspawn



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think its worth a section.
Ive built some different stuff for 9V and looked actively for it in the times I havent had spare bipolar supplies, felt I needed practice before doing modules etc.
That took some active searching finding stuff I wanted to make, that had enough stand alone function etc
Order is good, and adding a category to a database does not make it worse.
Theres MFOS stuff that works (recommend the stripboard for the weird sound generator), a lot of pedals, logic stuff, dividers, but you lunetta guys got that all covered probably Very Happy

Theres also the option of using something like the 7660 IC for bipolar 9V, but probably not for something to sensitive, that does need regulated voltage first as well Ive found.
Still ... works fine for the simple circuits where Ive subbed it instead of two batteries.
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Ray_Ketamu



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well as JovianPyx wrote above there would be some issues with the overall standart.
or more a reply to my call for a standart. not all match with each other or play happy together.
so perhaps the projects had to be devided in the 3 mentioned sub categorys?

somekind of kindergarden for the forum? Some real beginners Projectlinks put together in their rigth place so the question of: does this work with this doesn´t come up all the time? some FAQ rigth on top off the forum.

Saying something like: these are the circuits and projects off the Xv Category and will only work with the projects listed here because...

if you have no clue at all look at these videos first (listed in correct order).
this would be needed for each subforums subforum. then there would be an admin needed for each of the three subforums to supervise the correct projects are posted in each category, so no noob like me blows up his little ic...

Rolling Eyes gosh... kind off a labyrinth... I would love a forum like this but considering the fact that it would take away the time and the focus off someone who could do some real cool stuff in the pro moduls forum section makes me turn away from this idea.

If there is someone out there devoted to checking the posts for being in the correct beginners forum category, just for the sake of helping us. it would be awesome and a big plus for such an forum.

But without such a person it would turn out a load off mess... i think

cheers ansgar

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JovianPyx



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think the admin folks here want to keep a fairly casual and open system. So far, that has worked well and encourages everyone to post questions and ideas regardless of background or experience. It has become "self policing" in terms of ensuring information is scientifically correct.

I certainly don't know everything, but when I surf around the forums, I read things that pique my interest and comment if I think I have something of value to offer. I think that a lot of members do this.

FAQs are good, but also need to be maintained and as you pointed out, it can be difficult to find fierce dedication. Most or all of us come here for fun, to get some fun or to distribute some fun. When it becomes a burden, people drop away.

Also - many of us learned electronics before this forum existed. In my case, it was before the internet existed (I worked with vacuum tubes as a young teen). We learned by the read-and-do method. There are numerous books to be had. My particular favorite is The Art of Electronics by Horowitz and Hill. When new. it's a bit expensive, but the information never changes nor goes out of style. There are also some good basic electronics websites where you can pick up measuring techniques, soldering techniques, basic info about how transistors, diodes, caps and resistors work. I wish I had a good URL to post, but I'd bet that a few minutes with our friend Google can find them.

The main thing is - never give up. Keep reading and learning and of course, building and playing with the devices you build.

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