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A word about Yamaha Electone Organs: Secret Analogue Synths
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FlametopFred



Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Posts: 14
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:27 am    Post subject: Right Brain
Subject description: Left Brain
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To me, it is no small coincidence that Keyboard Players became a lot less interesting right about the time MIDI came out and everyone had to remember patch numbers.

The Greatest Keyboard Players, or at least the famous ones we all know and cite as our heroes all came from the "Right Brain" side of keyboard playing.

That is, none of them remembered Patch Numbers or Midi Zones.
They all played keyboards with lights and buttons.
Even your Minimoog was all about knobs and buttons.

To me that is what "analog" means ... you spin the knob, and really you never looked at what the value of that pot was.

Keith Emerson
Rick Wakeman
Tony Banks
Vangelis
Garth Hudson
Jon Lord
Joseph Zawinul
Herbie Hancock
Eddie Jobson
Chick Corea

When I think about them now, it hits me that they worked on keyboard setups that were all about pots, sliders, buttons. No menus. No patch numbers.

I think something is lost in the playing when you have to stop and remember "Organ Sound is # 82 " rather than just pull out some drawbars or hit the green button.

I think there is something to this.

And I am trying to think hard of a post-1983 keyboard hero. So far I have come up with none. There are some good players ... and we're talking now about the height of keyboard bands. No players that I can think of come to mind from that era. Thomas Dolby?

Is this a coincidence?



I wish today that there were an equal to the Electone setup.
Two 61-note keyboards.
general kind of Buttons that Light Up

that kind of thing is all I really need



what I mean is: out of all the keyboards that I have owned and played, the Electones are the most fun to play. (the CS-80 is tied maybe).



Why is that ?
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FlametopFred



Joined: Mar 05, 2008
Posts: 14
Location: Vancouver

PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:48 am    Post subject: For the Record
Subject description: Your Honour
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For the record, the E-70 is the one that has the sound I find
- more lush
- more sprawling
- closest to the CS-80


The E-75 is great, I love it ... but it is a departure from the E-70.
While I like having the extra bank of String Ensemble sounds, there is something slightly lost on the E-75.

The E-75 sounds are "more balanced" and "more even" than the E-70.
Why that is, I am not 100% sure except that I blame the engineers at the time for (with good intentions) improving the sound.

The E-75 has a tighter sound, but the E-70 just has "that something" that makes it wilder, lusher and more sprawling in the sonic/playability.

Just my two bits.
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soundwave106



Joined: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 331
Location: Elmo's Mud Wrestling Club
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Right Brain
Subject description: Left Brain
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FlametopFred wrote:
And I am trying to think hard of a post-1983 keyboard hero. So far I have come up with none. There are some good players ... and we're talking now about the height of keyboard bands. No players that I can think of come to mind from that era. Thomas Dolby?
Is this a coincidence?


Limitations in technology certainly contributed to the type of synthesizer player you were talking about. The DX7 ushered in the "realistic" patch era, where keyboardists in rock and roll were relegated to background textures and filler.

For a long time, the only place that the analog synthesizer could be found was in "programmed" genres like hip-hop and techno. I can name many synthesizer legends post-1983 that people hugely admire, but they mostly come from these genres.
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bugfight



Joined: Aug 02, 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Arlington, TX USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: For the Record
Subject description: Your Honour
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FlametopFred wrote:

... the E-70 just has "that something" that makes it wilder, lusher and more sprawling in the sonic/playability....



thanks for the rec, ff.
i should be picking up an e-70 on saturday.
(i doubt i'll ever get the knack of the pedals...)

the organ forum thread link above seems to have lost it's steam, though...
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bugfight



Joined: Aug 02, 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Arlington, TX USA

PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this thread too it seems....

anyways, i'm liking the thing so far
my feet are indeed useless, though

i can see the need to get more control over parms,
been on the lookout for the service manual.
FlametopFred, if you can share that pas manual, that would be great...
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dr funk



Joined: Sep 03, 2008
Posts: 5
Location: Ireland

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugfight wrote:
this thread too it seems....
anyways, i'm liking the thing so far
my feet are indeed useless, though


Congrats on the E70! I've had mine for about 6 months now - I think I understand it pretty well at this point. Any questions, just fire away and I'll do my best!

If your feet are indeed useless (as are mine), try coupling the lower manual to upper, and pedals to lower. That way you can play bass on the lower manual, and stack the upper & lower sounds together on the upper - much fun! You end up with 4 oscs per note on the upper manual, with variable osc. detune via the celeste. And it's still 7 voice polyphonic on the upper!

Have you got the expression pedal filter sweep thing going on the upper manual yet? Between that and the touch vibrato, with a brass sound it's pretty easy to get into Blade Runner territory, if that's your kinda thing... Very Happy Of course, you need to kill the internal speakers & take a line out, adding a ton of delay & reverb!

Frank
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bugfight



Joined: Aug 02, 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Arlington, TX USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dr funk wrote:

Congrats on the E70! I've had mine for about 6 months now - I think I understand it pretty well at this point. Any questions, just fire away and I'll do my best!


thanks, dr f
i may have some q, but luckily i have the users manual...

Quote:

If your feet are indeed useless (as are mine), try coupling the lower manual to upper, and pedals to lower. That way you can play bass on the lower manual, and stack the upper & lower sounds together on the upper - much fun! You end up with 4 oscs per note on the upper manual, with variable osc. detune via the celeste. And it's still 7 voice polyphonic on the upper!


yes this is way cool, i've found you have to click both links or you wind up with both the lower settings and the pedals on the lower half of the lower manual...

also, it definitely sounds quite different to play both manuals than to link upper/lower, good tip on the celeste setting, though, i haven't tried that...

Quote:

Have you got the expression pedal filter sweep thing going on the upper manual yet? Between that and the touch vibrato, with a brass sound it's pretty easy to get into Blade Runner territory, if that's your kinda thing...


oh yes, that's the first thing i tried, hard to control the filter that way though...
touch vibrato is nice, too bad it only controls rate, but at least it's poly...

Quote:

Of course, you need to kill the internal speakers & take a line out, adding a ton of delay & reverb!

Frank


this is the first mod to make, no? i think this site is a better place to discuss mods, but maybe need a new thread? i think i can help out with that. there are also a number of midiboxers who have done "midi-fication" of organs...

hopefully ff will pop up with the lost pas manual pdf, and another service manual will show up on ebay...
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v-un-v
Janitor
Janitor


Joined: May 16, 2005
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

An E-70 Electone just went on eBay UK for £290. I wish I had a bigger house Crying or Very sad
_________________
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Kenneth



Joined: Apr 16, 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: Right Brain
Subject description: Left Brain
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FlametopFred wrote:

Keith Emerson
Rick Wakeman
Tony Banks
Vangelis
Garth Hudson
Jon Lord
Joseph Zawinul
Herbie Hancock
Eddie Jobson
Chick Corea


And how on earth did you forget about Vincent Crane???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Soy4x-H4gI4&feature=related

EDIT:

http://www.tradera.com/auction/auction.aspx?aid=88983275 (Yamaha B-5DR for the price of $10!!! =)

Just got that one, was bidding on it and because of that I started to look for threads about organs, that's how I got here. I know it is not of the same type as the ones you are talking about, this is earlier stuff, but how about the hardware in this type?

(I got it because I like to have a musical instrument that is fun to play, not for rebuilding it to a synth)

Last edited by Kenneth on Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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soundwave106



Joined: Nov 24, 2004
Posts: 331
Location: Elmo's Mud Wrestling Club
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The Yamaha B-5 is one of their earliest models, so I believe that the 1960s home organs (like this one seems to be) typically used some sort of divide-down technology, similar to the portable combo organs famous in 1960s rock and roll. You won't get a CS-80 like analog synth in it, that's for sure. Smile

For $10, if you have the room though, it might be quite fun. Combo organs have their place in music.
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Kenneth



Joined: Apr 16, 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank's for the reply and Ok, that's what I guessed too, but you newer know if you don't ask Smile

It is a 1971 years model BTW.
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Kenneth



Joined: Apr 16, 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Got my B5 home today, it's much nicer than I thought. It is four separate intruments. Pedals is one mono base organ, lower manual is a pretty simple organ with three control levers, the upper manual is the most developed part and has got eight control levers and besides the organs a drum box with eight presets + a "variation" button that gives a total of 16 patterns + speed knob.

On top of that it has got a main speaker + a selectable rotary speaker width a speed control knob. To my suprice I also found a 30-40 cm long spring reverb inside the case, remember I got it for about $10, how much is a spring reverb of that lengt only? (can't be that hard to modify so it is possible to use it as a stand alone part)

The levers that controls the sounds are intresting, most of them seems to control VCO mixing and filter settings. The levers are digital and clicks into four positions each but the function is not digital, the levers seems (have not opend the top yet =) to connect to pots because if you move then slowly between click positions you can clearly hear filter sweeps. The range is limited, the leavers changes in a range of about 30 degrees. I can imagine that if you move the lines to the pot to an external pot you can get wider control, another possibility must be to use LFO's for control. The three levers for the lower manual are all of this type. For the upper manual one controls "percussive" and that is a short AD envelop that trigs only for the first key you press. At one end it has no effect, then also the first key is strait out organ (as the rest is when one is already pressed), in the other end it is at full, the lever mixes in a extra signal that is amplified in the envelop generator = the volume is much stronger for the first key. There is also one lever that adds vibrato to both manuals. The pedal base has got two levers for ocillators, 8' and 16' and a lever for "sustain" (that is for real release time).

With extra reverb (control of the spring reverb is sadly limited, it needs more feedback), delay and some amplifier distortion it sounds really great, will make a vid of it soon Smile
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Kenneth



Joined: Apr 16, 2009
Posts: 43
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

soundwave106 wrote:
The Yamaha B-5 is one of their earliest models, so I believe that the 1960s home organs (like this one seems to be) typically used some sort of divide-down technology, similar to the portable combo organs famous in 1960s rock and roll. You won't get a CS-80 like analog synth in it, that's for sure. Smile


Sorry for the bump guys... but I like to show a top octave organ in not only for churches or fozzilised rock and roll bands Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0WDfjkzii0

I Fed the electone to loads of space echo, reverb and phasers (all digital) and it makes perfect electronica =)

(if one wonders where I went.. took a break for the summer, I'm rater outdoors than sitting at home doing geek things then and after that I have done other stuff... but now I feel a bit for electronica again)

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sizone



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

it is fossilized rock and church music electronica Smile
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nelson



Joined: Nov 29, 2009
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Location: Sweden

PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:43 pm    Post subject: BK5+SY-1 = CSY-1 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I just think you should consider getting hold of a CSY-1... It's two of them available in your area of the world right now... Smile Have a look at:

http://www.blocket.se/halland/Analog_Syntorgel_Yamaha_CSY_1__SY_1___BK_5__24265022.htm?ca=4&w=3&last=1

You would still have your BK-5, so to speak...

Happy playing!

Kenneth wrote:
soundwave106 wrote:
The Yamaha B-5 is one of their earliest models, so I believe that the 1960s home organs (like this one seems to be) typically used some sort of divide-down technology, similar to the portable combo organs famous in 1960s rock and roll. You won't get a CS-80 like analog synth in it, that's for sure. Smile


Sorry for the bump guys... but I like to show a top octave organ in not only for churches or fozzilised rock and roll bands Smile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0WDfjkzii0

I Fed the electone to loads of space echo, reverb and phasers (all digital) and it makes perfect electronica =)

(if one wonders where I went.. took a break for the summer, I'm rater outdoors than sitting at home doing geek things then and after that I have done other stuff... but now I feel a bit for electronica again)
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keyman2



Joined: Jul 16, 2013
Posts: 6
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: A word about Yamaha Electone Organs: Secret Analogue Synths
Subject description: Shut out of the CS-80 market? Scour the globe for E-70 Electones!
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Just to set the record straight, the E70 and other PASS organs are only analog as far as the use of the CS-80 style VCF and VCA - the VCF is not quite the same, lacking keyboard voltage. The rest of the engine is entirely digital - in fact a very early sample playback - the very basic and simple waveforms are stored in a rom and played out via a DAC.... it's very close to the Korg DW8000. Even the organ tones are digitally reconstituted 'samples'... no divide down. The drums are digitally controlled by a pattern ROM and other digital circuitry, but the percussion rhythm sounds are pure analog.

Other forums will document the ability to transform a fixed orchestra preset into an analog control panel - by replacing fixed voltages in a preset with a variable voltage divider reference (potentiometer)... this gives some nice results, polyphonic and 3 manuals (the bass pedals are monophonic) but far from what one might refer to being a CS80.

There is zero aftertouch, limited modulation and no ring modulation etc. which is what the CS80 is known for. You can get creative and add modulations etc. but it's not a basic process. Here is one of the better conversions of the basic E70 by Jacob Korn, as inspired by Marc Brasse and others. https://youtu.be/DB5ujVGxt0Y?t=436


FlametopFred wrote:
I am a slow learner.

But finally I came to the conclusion that some Yamaha Electone Organs are in fact complex analogue synthesizers based on the PASS technology that was developed on the GX-1 and famously put forward in the CS-80.

And these days, the CS-80 market has almost shut everybody out.
I can't believe the prices.

So I set out to research exactly how close some of those old Electone organs were. And the results are suprising.

I first started by buying a locally advertised D-85 for $50.
Digging deep into the sound, I discovered an analog synth core heart.

Which led me to investigate further, eventually determining that there were other Electone models with the same basic sonic engine and circuit boards as the CS-80.

These models are:
E-70 (1977)
E-75 (1980)
7000 (1982)

And I found a local E-70 to buy and take home. It totally confirms my hypothesis. The E-70 (and E-75 and 7000) are basically CS-80s inside a home organ box. Different features, but the same basic sounds.

The E-70 is what Pete Townsend used on the Face Dances album and of course, Emminence Front. That sequencer-sounding intro is the arpeggiator of the Electone.

Trying to figure out how many E-70s are left is hard, but I reason that even with one E-70 in one church in each state or province, that would have been about 60 minimum. Figure half are gone. That probably means 30 such Electones still out there in the world.

For those seeking to get CS-80 type sounds, there is an alternative. Probably as close as your local Craigslist, or local Church, Funeral Home or family garage sale.

They are out there. Somewhere.

Happy Hunting (bring 3 friends and a truck)
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Grumble



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/muziek-en-instrumenten/orgels/m1125624517-yamaha-d-85.html?c=8c285449651fa109c354bbabe740c1b&previousPage=lr&pos=1

Thats a D-85 for 250 euro
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keyman2



Joined: Jul 16, 2013
Posts: 6
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: D85
Subject description: D85 vs. the E series...
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Certainly has a few more bells and whistles than the E series, particularily the triple chorus ensemble, Human Choir etc. but in case it's what one is after, you can't do the same analog preset controls trick with it since it's hardwired in the digital chips

Grumble wrote:
http://www.marktplaats.nl/a/muziek-en-instrumenten/orgels/m1125624517-yamaha-d-85.html?c=8c285449651fa109c354bbabe740c1b&previousPage=lr&pos=1

Thats a D-85 for 250 euro
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