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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
latching logic puzzle
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mike page



Joined: Sep 26, 2016
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 4:19 am    Post subject: latching logic puzzle Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I need a 2 input, 1 output gate that does the following:

Output is low unless both inputs are high (like '&')
but stays high until BOTH inputs go low.

Some sort of flip flop or latch thing I recon but I havent as yet come across one that does the job.

Thanks!

(I feel like im constantly writing little questions here to try and solve my lunetta problems, feel free to politely ask me not to if it is annoying!)

Last edited by mike page on Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:19 am; edited 2 times in total
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blue hell
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It can probably be done simpler ... but when you'd use an SR flipflop you could SET it with the AND of the two inputs and RESET it with the NOR of those same inputs.

And, let me kindly ask you to please keep asking questions :-)

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Steveg



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You need an RS flip-flop. Connect an AND gate to the Set input. Connect a NOR gate to the Reset input.

Blue Hell is obviously a faster typist than me Smile
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mike page



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the replies!

So there is no 1 IC that does this?
If it takes more than 1 I recon I will rethink what I am trying to do...

Glad my constant questions are acceptable!
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I might have an idea, not sure yet if it will work but I'll be back.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I haven't tested it but this might work Cool


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mike page



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is an elegant little solution!! Love it!
will it send a second pulse as input c gets triggered?
maybe a cap and resistor on the output could solve this if its an issue.

Thanks!!
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't think so but it might. So you'll just have to test it.
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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Congratulations Moonbase! It works...



R

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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very Happy awesome (took me a minute to figure out I should not be looking at the flashing red and green lights).
btw. nice modules!

Might be useful in the future and I think there are some variations possible where it works with inverted inputs.
so, what do we call this latch ?

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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think this could work too, but it might do something weird Cool
(could be done with a CD4051 too of course and with more options)

actually, since it is an analog mux it probably doesn't work or maybe with it a cap.


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mike page



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I was wondering if it was possible with a 4052!

Now ive got some spare switching routes left over. Im going to be running it at audio rate so not sure how i'll utilise them, but by god i will.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The more I think about it the more sure I am that the 4052 version won't work, but maybe it could be useful in some way.
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mike page



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 12:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah I see, cos the 'out' will immediately go low when either 'in' goes low?

Tiny capacitor then resistor on output to hold it high just for as long as it takes to switch?

not a great solution as that adds a funny time constant which might be tricky to get right at audio rate...

(BTW 'chuck a capacitor at it' is my solution to everything)
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, when one of the inputs goes low it is the equivalent of a piece of wire attached to itself. A small capacitor could work
but it wil be discharged by whatever you attach the output too so it needs to be big enough but also small enough to handle
the frequency. I think the 4051 is just a better options and because both halves of the 4052 share the control inputs
it's probably not that useful anyway.

('chucking a capacitor at it' has sometimes worked as a solution to things for me too Wink)

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Last edited by PHOBoS on Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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mike page



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

PHOBoS wrote:
I think the 4051 is just a better options and because both halves of the 4052 share the control inputs
it's probably not that useful anyway.

exactly. I was thinking I could probably use it to get a sort of inverted output, but I dont have a use for that in the thing im designing so the 4051 is probably the way to go. Cheerzz
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I drew up the variations as well.


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mike page



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PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ha nice! now you need to do all the permutations for a 4067 based latch Twisted Evil
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

Does make me wonder, you could combine any 2 of the above variations but also do something else like choose between
latching and non latching states.

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mike page



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and 3 input gates...
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synaesthesia



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just saw this thread and I would do it just like Blue Hell and SteveG said. It can be done with just one quad NAND IC (4011 or 4093) if you use one NAND to set and the wired-OR to reset the RS-FF from two NANDs.
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yep that works too Very Happy
I did initially think about using NAND gates but expected it would take more gates especially with the OR.
But you can do that without a gate of course. So that actually leaves a spare NAND for something else.

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Steveg



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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I got it to 4 x NAND and 4 x Inverters in 2 chips but I thought PHOBoS' solution was easier.
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mike page



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For the sake of learning I would be interested in seeing the NAND!
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I could draw it but for the sake of learning I'd say look up a NAND flip flop and try to figure it out from there first Wink
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