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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Using a momentary push to trigger timed actions
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CHRISKELLY



Joined: Apr 08, 2018
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:27 am    Post subject: Using a momentary push to trigger timed actions
Subject description: Need a bit of help figuring this one out!
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Hello guys

My 4017 based sequencer build is almost finished, but I wanted to have a momentaty push button to trigger an effect.

My idea is to trigger an action for 4 or 8 steps of the sequencer then revert back to normal.

The idea was to use a 4015 and tie either 4 or 8 outputs together to send a high signal to a 4066 switch. The switch stays open for the number of steps tied together, then closes again afterwards. The 4015 uses the same clock as the 4017, and the data input to the shift register keeps the effect going.

The problem is that the momentary needs to be held down whilst the clock cycles through one whole step, making it less "reactive". Sometimes it even takes holding down for slightly longer (not sure why)

Are there any other ways to achieve a signal to the 4066 for a set number of steps that i can activate with one momentary switch closure?

Confused

I can upload a schematic if that helps

Cheers
Chris
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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

making it less "reactive"

hmmm, smells like a flip-flop Very Happy
(better have a schematic for when the cavalry arrive; I'm only reconaissance)

R
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

where's the schematic ? Laughing

Sounds indeed like a job for a flip/flop (or latch). Trigger it with the button and let it enable a counter,
then reset the flip/flop when the counter reaches the number of steps you want.

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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow that was fast! Thanks guys

I'll get a schematic up soon - never had to draw one up before so it might take a while Very Happy

Will investigate flip flop latches in the meantime
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piedwagtail



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
reaches the number of steps you want.


typical mission creep
Very Happy

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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2018 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Got it working Very Happy used an RC circuit to trigger a momentary clock pulse into a JK flip flop, which latched until a 4017 counted 4 beats then reset.
Just tied the flip flop latch to a 4066 to keep the switch closed for the 4 beats.

Thanks for your help. Mission success
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

good to hear you got it working Very Happy

(I'd stilll ike a schematic though Wink)

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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing I swear it's on the way!

Was going to wait til I'd finished the whole project and then upload one, but the whole thing has just grown organically as I've learned new things. There are 24 breadboards and over 60 ic's.

The thought of drawing a schematic for the whole thing terrifies me Shocked
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

CHRISKELLY wrote:
There are 24 breadboards and over 60 ic's.

I think that's beyond anything I've built, what the hell are you building ?! Shocked

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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It started as an Atari Punk Console but has grown into a bit of a monster Confused

I've attached a block diagram of how the chips connect (like a flow chart)

But the basic idea is:
16 step sequencer for the "lead"
4 individual notes to play background chords/arpeggios
A bassline

The same 555's produce everything so it stays "in tune"


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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2018 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

W Cool W
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Steveg



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had to print out that block diagram to fully appreciate what you are building. Shocked Very Happy
I notice a lot of 4046 / 4017 combinations. To save on board space it might be worthwhile to look at this circuit: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-28799.html for your VCOs. You can feed the control voltage from an XOR / resistor / capacitor type comparator but you will need 50% duty cycles to compare. Get them by using the 4018 instead of the 4017. Because of the extra glue logic you might find this doesn't save much but it could be worth checking.
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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cheers for the suggestion Steve. I need any help I can get saving on space. This is my first build and it's bound to be made it in an inefficient way. I read the thread you linked but I"m a bit unsure how to apply it (will give it a few reads to make sure)

Those 4046/4017 combos are just frequency multipliers to get 3rds and 5ths etc.

I love the sound of the 4046's Very Happy the only drawback is you can still hear the internal VCO whirring during any dead time - i.e notes switched off in the sequence
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

CHRISKELLY wrote:
.. the only drawback is you can still hear the internal VCO whirring during any dead time - i.e notes switched off in the sequence

check out this post.

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Steveg



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So the circuit is a poor man's VCO. Ignore Q2 and its downstream circuitry and take the 4018 clock directly from "b". Ignore Q3 and its associated circuitry unless you want to use that as your VCO output. Ignore R1 and R10 because you are not using manual control.

Connect the 4018 output and a reference clock as inputs to an XOR. Output from the XOR goes to a resistor / capacitor low pass filter and the output from that goes to CV In on the diagram.

There is your phase locked loop with 1/6 of a 40106, 1/4 of a 4070 and a 4018.

You could tune all your VCOs to the same base frequency like the drones on a bagpipe.
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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you for the help and suggestions guys I appreciate it.

Phobos - that idea looks awesome and simple! I'll definitely give that a go Very Happy

Steve - cheers for explaining the VCO idea. Gonna keep this one handy for my next project I think
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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Phobos - I tried your elegant transistor idea to switch out the 4046 during the "dead time" but failed miserably.

So, I've gone for a brute force method instead!

Each step from the 4017 has an SPDT to turn it on/off.
In the off position I can send the signal instead to a 4069 (via a diode) which sends a zero to an analog switch. The switch normally allows the signal to the mixer.

For once I went to the trouble of drawing a schematic Laughing


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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hang on, the 100k from pin 5 of the 4066 should be tied to Vcc Embarassed
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PHOBoS



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Using the transistor is actually a rather crude method, a comparator would function better. What you're doing with some extra switches
is a more standard approach and much more versatile. However there is an easier way to do it if you use the Inhibit pin (pin 5) of the
4046. Making this pin high wil shut it up so you can attach the switches (with some diodes) directly to it.

Thanks for the schematic Wink

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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mind explaining your 358 filter section? Curious if it's similar to the WSG filter which uses the 471. got a schematic? (hoping it's relatively simple)
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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Stolenfat

I found a simplified Steiner Parker filter variant which gives HP/LP/BP and sounds pretty good.

For the dual gang pots i originally used 200k. The schematic below is from the site I found it on but I changed some of the resistor values when building it. But you get the general idea.


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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for this, I'll give it save. Looks similar to some other designs I've seen but that diode section in the lower part seems unique, I'll have to build it up. How do you get the v- for the opamp? Is your project on a dual supply or did you create a voltage reference ladder with some resistors?
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CHRISKELLY



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From what I can gather the diodes help prevent the op amp running into wild oscillation, but someone who knows what they're on about might be able to explain better!

I used GND for -V as my build is single supply 0 - +9V. Still sounds nice.

One thing worth trying is different dual pot values. My first try was with 500k pot. The LP and HP filters really squealed at the top end which gave it loads of character. In the end I swapped for a 200k so that the sweep made better use of the range available (i.e with 500k there was alot of wasted range where nothing happened) since doing that i can only get the mad squealing on the LP. Might have something to do with the resistance matching in the dual gang pot.

Again, someone else can probably explain why Very Happy
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