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 Forum index » Discussion » Composition
How do you write your partiture?
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rodcencko



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 1:56 am    Post subject: How do you write your partiture? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A difficult matter for me during the composition process is to see the big picture of the entire composition , sometimes I would like to see the end and the beginning at same time to better understand where I can place some new compositional's elements , so I wonder if is there any music composition layout program? I was thinking to make something with a block diagram program but maybe there is already something suitable for music composition.
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jkn



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I haven't written actual notes on paper (or screen) in a long time (well over a decade) - so I don't think I'll be of much help.

If I get an idea in my head I'll sketch it out on paper in a sort of shorthand I've fallen into. It helps me remind myself of what the idea was - I'll describe things in quick notes - and maybe write up descriptions. I typically keep these in a notebook and pull them out later.

Most of my recording is more on the improvisation side of the fence though. In the 80's I used to write some things out fully, usually piano pieces - I find what I do now to be more 'fun' which is the key to me.

Sorry I'm not much help...
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very good question. I write in Live and though it's a marvelous program it's often quite hard to see the actual structure. You can work with colour coding your clips and so on but that doesn't realy give any good information on either the time or the frequency ballance. I try and keep a clear mental picture of where I am and where I want to go and that seems to work much better then graphical information.

Zooming in and out does give some feeling for the relative importance of sections but you can only see how long sections are, not how long they feel like since it's so hard to see how dense or varied the information is.

I think there's a market for a program that would solve this.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have often thought about this, but never seen anything like what you are thinking about - a block diagram for music. The closest thing I've used is the timeline feature on Kyma. In Kyma you can create blocks that perform processes and lay them in time as if they were tracks in a conventional digital audio workstation.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I have often thought about this, but never seen anything like what you are thinking about - a block diagram for music. The closest thing I've used is the timeline feature on Kyma. In Kyma you can create blocks that perform processes and lay them in time as if they were tracks in a conventional digital audio workstation.


I think Blue by Steven Yi can do that too but the hard bit will be making the "blocks look like what they do" in order to have visual feedback. Idealy we'd have textures for blocks that express what's in them; dotted paterns for blips and perhaps opaque stripes for strings and so on. There was a rather accedemic initiative to develop a midi sequencer for childeren that used somthing along those lines. The idea was interesting, it looked nice and I found it quite unusable.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah, yes, I found it back;

Quote:
SoundObjects are the building blocks within blue's score timeline. soundObjects can be lists of notes, algorithmic generators, python script code, csound instrument definitions, and whatever plugins that are developed for blue. these soundObjects may be text based, but they can be completely GUI based as well.


http://www.csounds.com/stevenyi/blue/

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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 10:32 am    Post subject: Re: How do you write your partiture? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

rodcencko wrote:
I would like to see the end and the beginning at same time to better understand where I can place some new compositional's elements

If I understand clearly what you say any sequencer would do: something like that it's easy to achieve with an application like Emagic Logic. you can save intros, outros, middle sections, paste stuff from one section to another plus any other conceivable editing.

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rodcencko



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 12:42 am    Post subject: Re: How do you write your partiture? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:

If I understand clearly what you say any sequencer would do: something like that it's easy to achieve with an application like Emagic Logic. you can save intros, outros, middle sections, paste stuff from one section to another plus any other conceivable editing.


Not necessarly I have to always follow the timeline , I think a composition as a whole alike a painting . You don't think as a time sequence in a painting every elements are there at the same time.
The composition is the relation between elements and you don't care if the painter has painted the flower before the pot.
BTW I don't know what Logic can do I use Live
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Logic is a "high end " DAW with support for notation. It is a far better tool for making music in the traditional way of thinking a score. The notation editor is not as "perfect" like the one in Sibelius, but I don´t think that matters much. Logic, Cubase and similar apps are more suited for making actual music. Sibelius and Finale can be used as compositional tools, but they are better seen as desktop publishing suites for sheet music.
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chuck



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My comp/theory teacher used to have us study pieces by drawing blueprints of the form. Not necessarily blocks for expo-development-recap etc., but rather diagrams or whatever shapes we wanted with connecting lines... very open concept. The important idea was to have ALL the information on one side of a page (some of us cheated and used very large paper). The point was that we could see the entire work at one time, and the experience was good, seeing all at once instead of experiencing the work in sequence, in time.

I find I do the same thing now, although the music I'm composing is very different than the classical form, seeing it all at once is very helpful. I also label different parts with numbers of letter and then create a separate page with just that section. Sometimes the 'scores' are many pages, but the concept of 'One page, one idea' is intact.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked I just noticed your name, Chuck, is Charles Ives. Cool

Ives is one of my favs, expecially the last movement of the 4th Symphony. love

Anyway, I assume you are not the same Charles Ives that has been dead for 50 years. Still, I'd love to see one of these one page score-like things you mention. Any chance you could scan one in and post it here?

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chuck



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No, that's just the quote credit. I have the honor of long and silly German name that has to be spelled everytime I order something on the phone.

I don't have a scanner, but my son does so I'll try something with his help. What I use for score paper is something that I've made up with Sibelius and it has just line, a grid with a horizonal line for each tone color I'm going to use and a ten vertical lines for time. So I can assign whatever time I want to the vertical lines (secs, minutes, measures). Then I just draw pics of what the sound is like. I don't use pitches very much so there are crude drawings of white noise, granular stuff and other things. I don't think it would mean too much without the music, but it might be interesting to see what other people would come up with as they 'realize' the drawings.

Using paintings as scores is kinda interesting too. Later this year my students will be composing to some paintings by Rothko. Try it.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

chuck wrote:
Using paintings as scores is kinda interesting too. Later this year my students will be composing to some paintings by Rothko. Try it.

I have done this. We had a pick up experimental improv group in the Bay Area in the 70s. One night someone brought a slide projector and started projecting some experimental scores on the wall. At first they looked almost like conventional notation, but with graphical figures instead of notes. Each new score became more and more abstract and the music got more and more interesting. The last slide was had the best music. It turned out to be a painting. Laughing

A local group, Orbital Decay, produces videos that are projected on the back of the stage while they perform on guitar and synths. They use the video as a score. There is no backing track, just the video.

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deknow



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...i don't know if others have seen this, but this discussion made me think of this. note "remove cattle from stage" and "release the penguins" and the like.

deknow


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zdenko Fibich


http://portrait.kaar.at/Oesterreich%20Kultur%2019.Jhd%20Teil%202/image22.html

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

faeries aire and death waltz hurts my eyes
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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wonder what application you need to come up with something like "faeries aire and death waltz". Finalius Question Shocked
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The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; the motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus: Let no such man be trusted. - W. Shakespeare
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:
I wonder what application you need to come up with something like "faeries aire and death waltz". Finalius Question Shocked



Nope, Sibelius now also comes in a syphylitic Richard Wagner bundle.

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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Sibelius now also comes in a syphylitic Richard Wagner bundle.

does it have the "syphilitic dementia" font too Question Shocked

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The man that hath no music in himself, nor is not mov'd with concord of sweet sounds, is fit for treasons, stratagems and spoils; the motions of his spirit are dull as night and his affections dark as Erebus: Let no such man be trusted. - W. Shakespeare
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:

does it have the "syphilitic dementia" font too Question Shocked


Funny you are asking. Yes, it actually does. Only in bold though, but fittingly it is provided as a .dfont.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

somehow, it seems on topic to mention that my copy of "lisztomania" arrived today (it's amazing what you can buy for almost no money on vhs these days).

deknow
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aha! The Ken Russel movie! Very on topic indeed.
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craftid



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2005 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have used diagrams and flow charts for composition, and colour for the emotion is good, but I've never enough pens.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

As we think about notation and grammar of music, it is interesting to keep in mind that this too is a technology. And, as with all technology, some of the aspects that make it work, also eliminate or reduce some of the the power of the content.

I recently joined a R+B band and have noted with interest that some players do not read music or any other kind of notation. And while this puts a real challenge to communication of new musical ideas, it is amazing to see their powers of memory and ear training at work. Interesting too is the horn section. For reasons of ease they have all their music written (yea, they can read) on one piece of paper per song. Trumpet, tenor sax and trombone all read the music in concert pitch and treble clef. There is then a great ease of trading lines and covering parts that are missing etc. etc.. but they've given up notating cross voices and counterpoint.

So, the point of all this that I think we need to examine our grammar and our notation from time to time and see if there is something that is being hindered or eliminated from our music simply by the way we think of it.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In the off chance anyone is interested…I have added a thread to the How-tos Developer’s Corner sub forum that is relevant to this thread.
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