Anti-music

elektro80 · Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:21 pm Post subject:

Zembla.. could you repost your request in Schmooze? I will move my answering post there too.. and clean up this thread. OK? Classical music is a great subject.

illuminated · Joined: Jun 19, 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Chicago

Edited

Kassen · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:03 am Post subject:

Kassen · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:22 am Post subject:

zembla · Joined: Oct 18, 2005 Posts: 12 Location: UK

For my edification could you mention/link some examples of the kind of noise anti-music you are referring to?

Jim

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:32 am Post subject:

One example of noise music is this one. I won´t tell you if it is good or bad or even antimusic. You gotta play it loud. Really loud. And then some.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:35 am Post subject:

This one is cute.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:59 am Post subject:

These files were recorded by Lasse Marhaug. He is fairly well known, and probably not a good example of "bad" noise music, whatever that is. His stuff is pretty entertaining and rather decent music. If you ever get the chance.. go to one of his concerts. One issue is of course that x number of kids are making noise music that is supposed to sound like lasse marhaug. Whatever he makes is kosher, so a big part of the scene is about emulating lasse marhaug. He probably thinks this is OK for now, but imagine how tiring this must be by 2030. This is not unique. There are thousands of Lustmord emulators hard at work out there too.

elektro80 · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:01 am Post subject:

I should add that I don´t know if this is the kind of "noise" the others here are thinking of.

rnp · Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 55 Location: germany

thanks for those links, the liveset on the second one is awesome, listening now. however you're right, I wouldn't consider Marhaug typical for the bulk of the noise scene. much closer in spirit to Raster Noton than to, say, Ant-Zen (boring label analogies I know, but it works as mental connector for me).

zembla · Joined: Oct 18, 2005 Posts: 12 Location: UK

I enjoyed that.

Definitely music though. He betrays a bourgeois preoccupation with rhythm and pitch Wink

Jim

Kassen · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:19 am Post subject:

I like John Duncan.

ryansupak · Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Dallas, TX

When I think "Anti-Music", some (findably) well-known, current, examples I think of are Black Dice, The Skaters, and Jandek.

A casual listener would call this "stuff" noise, but I think a closer listen reveals that these people understand rhythm, melody, and cadence well enough to slip in and out of musical conventions at will -- to the end of expressing something about the human condition.

To me, that's when it really gets interesting -- since I think rhythm and melody will be "core values" of music, as long as there are people.

Regarding talent/education:
I think there's some truth to the old saw that "it helps to know the rules, when attempting to break them properly".

$0.001,
rs

Antimon · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:48 am Post subject:

mosc · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:19 am Post subject:

I once knew a guy named Ken Werner who used the alias (stage name?) of Phil Harmonic. We were students together at Mills College. He died a few years ago, unfortunately. Anyway, he was big into conceptual art and music.

He was upset with this talent concept. He wanted to break from the concept of talent. I think he saw music as not too much different from professional modeling or beauty contests. If you have talent, you are a good musician. The more talent, the more successful you were. People born with talent were the chosen few to be adored by the rest of society. If you have no telent, you get nothing. People even put you down if you try to express yourself musically. Talent was a substitute for racisim - bigotry at the extreme.

He would do performances that would play to this. Naturally, some people hated him - called his music "non-music", talentless, charlatinism, that sort of thing. I used to have a radio program on a local station in Berkeley, KPFA. The show was called Thin Aire. I would have Ken on from time to time. Not to play music, but to talk. People started to express hatred for me too, just for treating him like he was a real musician.

Kassen · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject:

That's good then. If people get unreasonably mad at you it often hints at them being either insecure or perhaps that they secretly fear you might be right.

I think we should face it with a more open mind. Looking objectively it would be great if there were a form that could be expressive yet required no heavy learning curve or time consuming practice sessions. If noise would realy offer this then I'd say we should all go make noise as soon as possible. Sure, we would "throw away" years, maybe decades of practice but surely that would beat having to practice for yet more time?

(yes, that's meant provocatively)

illuminated · Joined: Jun 19, 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Chicago

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undrachievr · Joined: Oct 18, 2005 Posts: 4 Location: Hamburg, Germany

noise doesn't hurt people - people hurt people... Wink

jksuperstar · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject:

I've only been exposed to 2 types of noise music: one kind *tries* to make/find/create patterns out of noise. The other tries to create noise out of patterns. The third type, having no pattern whatsoever, I don't klnow if I'd consider *music*. Then again, if it expresses some type of emotion, which may also be like having no pattern or form, then it very well might be music. Who cares? Do I like what I'm hearing *right now*. That's what's important to me. The only reason to record something is that I might like it better at a later date. Or like it again. When it suites my state of mind. Or maybe someone else's state of mind. Other than that, why bother?

mosc · Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:00 pm Post subject:

While Phil Harmonic made me think and opened up my attitude, I do believe there is such a thing as talent. I mean, I don't know how much study you will do - how much practice - but very few people can write songs like Bob Dylan. I know friends who have great talent for piano. They started taking piano lessons when I did and practiced no more then me, but the play much better. I think they have more talent for this instrument. I have certain talents too - certain abilities that almost seem to come naturally. As undemocratic as it may be, there really is such a thing.

illuminated · Joined: Jun 19, 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Chicago

Edited

Kassen · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:12 am Post subject:

elektro80 · Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:59 am Post subject:

Ken Werner links:

http://www.lovely.com/bios/harmonic.html

Shocked

http://www.o-art.org/history/70's/CcmCrowd70s/SevenYears/7YearsTape3.html

ryansupak · Joined: Sep 13, 2005 Posts: 15 Location: Dallas, TX

I can't prove whether or not the Soul really exists, but I think that the idea of supernatural things is, at least, a useful analogy for humans to talk about things that are beyond our current ability to measure.

That being said, I think art, in general, is something that toes the line between Body and Soul.

I propose that many well-regarded musicians have acknowledged some spiritual or "mysterious" element in music.

For my part, I feel that the modern market-research-driven "zeitgeist-mirror" known as the Music Industry is not the most hospitable berth for spiritual activities. I think it's mostly a place for aggressive self-promoters and self-marketers.

I think technology is democratizing things to the extent that a new wave of minstreldom will emerge, and that music may again become a gentle, intimate social activity done predominantly for the love of it.

$0.015,
rs

illuminated · Joined: Jun 19, 2005 Posts: 50 Location: Chicago

Edited