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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 12:26 pm Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Traditionally, little phrases or motifs are passed from one voice to the other either verbatim or modified. |
Sorry, I gota get picky on semantics here It is a very common technique but I don't think it warrants the term "Traditionally." One can think of any number of pieces or movements from virtually any period in which counterpoint was practiced where this is not the case. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 2:17 pm Post subject:
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So,
counterpoint is when one melodic line plays something different to the other/s. An octave away is not something different, I know that. There's no need to state the obvious. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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opg
Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 954 Location: Berkeley, CA, US
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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject:
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OK, OK, simmer down now........No need to duel over counterpoint
There have been so many books written on the subject and so many "styles" of counterpoint that you could almost compare it with number theory regarding prime numbers. You could look and look within it to find a definition (a pattern), but all you will find are lots of little patterns (Ulam Spirals). I think the best way to define such a big area is to say what counterpoint isn't.
But then, can't counterpoint be subjective? If we say that it is simply two or more melody lines playing simulateously, than what happens if on a few of the beats each melody line plays the same note? STRIKE THEE DOWN! I think reading about the old styles from the 1600s or whatnot is useful, but just because what 2 melody lines you put together don't match up to one of those "styles" doesn't mean it's not counterpoint.
Oh, and watch the movie Pi. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 4:38 pm Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | So, counterpoint is when one melodic line plays something different to the other/s. An octave away is not something different, I know that. There's no need to state the obvious. |
No offence intended at all. I simply fell into being too literal minded; a common fault on my part. My apologies. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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DrJustice
Joined: Sep 13, 2004 Posts: 2114 Location: Morokulien
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Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 5:26 pm Post subject:
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Krunkus, you can always try a define: counterpoint on google for more views on it. I'm not trying to defer the discussion to google, I just find the 'define:' directive helpful sometimes.
And all do as opg sez: watch the movie Pi.
DJ
-- |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:09 am Post subject:
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Okay Bachus,
alternate arppegios at ten paces.
Shall we say 6am.
Your time or mine! _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:12 am Post subject:
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Really, I feel I have a good idea what counterpoint is now. Even if that is mostly 'not easy to define'. I'm so thankful for this forum. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 5:14 am Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | Okay Bachus,
alternate arppegios at ten paces.
Shall we say 6am.
Your time or mine! |
Sorry, out here we only duel with cow-pies.
Edit:
But I guess kangaroo poo would do too. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:00 am Post subject:
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bachus wrote: | mosc wrote: | Traditionally, little phrases or motifs are passed from one voice to the other either verbatim or modified. |
Sorry, I gota get picky on semantics here It is a very common technique but I don't think it warrants the term "Traditionally." One can think of any number of pieces or movements from virtually any period in which counterpoint was practiced where this is not the case. |
Picky, picky, picky...
OK, you are right. A better choice of words instead of "Traditionally" would have be "Often", or "Frequently", or "Relatively frequently", or "Based on my limited exposure to all examples of music written throughout history, it is my observation that on occation", or maybe "At least once or twice".
Now, back to basics. It would be fun to write a program or make a G2 patch or something that given an input MIDI stream, it would generate a voice or two of counterpoint. Anyone done that? _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 7:24 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Picky, picky, picky... |
Yea sorry been thinking about why that bothered me and I guess it's that the technique you mention is pretty much limited to a single species of counterpoint while the history and practice of counterpoint is much more interesing and diverse than that.
And yea, back to basics. So what are people here doing with counterpoint? Maybe even those of us not blessed with G2s _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:49 pm Post subject:
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If I could encode MP3s (my LAME licence ran out (how lame!)) I would show you more of my stuff. I'm starting to think everything I've written is counterpoint of some form or another!
I found a completely free (endless) MP3 encoder the other day. I think I'll have another look for it right now. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:06 pm Post subject:
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I can't believe it!
I've been using SoundForge for 7-8yrs and I just found out that you can save whatever you want as an MP3 straight out of there.
Unbelievable!!!
There should be a load of Uncle Krunkus tracks appearing in the Online Music section soon. Now I should be able to find out if I know anything about counterpoint or not! _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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elektro80
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Joined: Mar 25, 2003 Posts: 21959 Location: Norway
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Posted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:33 pm Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | There should be a load of Uncle Krunkus tracks appearing in the Online Music section soon. |
yes yes yes yes yes yes _________________ A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"
MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr |
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Doobah
Joined: Dec 03, 2005 Posts: 40 Location: Crackney
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 2:34 am Post subject:
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I don't know if it's contrapuntal. (as I only just discovered this term!) I do know it's got counterpoint! _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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Doobah
Joined: Dec 03, 2005 Posts: 40 Location: Crackney
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:01 am Post subject:
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What does that mean?
ie, Is counter point contrapuntal? or is contrapuntal something else.
fuck it, who cares, if it's music it must be good... |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 3:10 am Post subject:
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It basically just means that one line is playing something different (usually not un-related though) to the other one. It means that the whole becomes greater than its parts. I think.
They could be the same. I'm not sure.
Your last comment however ("if it's music it must be good") might spark a debate bigger than I can imagine! _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:02 am Post subject:
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I’d like to suggest an analogy. Consider a loose ball of wire as analogous to a musical composition and a flashlight as analogous to a theory of counterpoint (or harmony, or whatever). The contrapuntal analysis of the composition would then be a shadow cast by the wire when a flashlight of contrapuntal analysis casts its beam through the wire. Though the shadow does not describe the ball of wire it contains real and potentially useful information about it. The shadow is not part of the ball of wire. It’s not even implicit in the ball of wire outside of a context that includes the flashlight. All of which is by way of justifying an assertion that counterpoint, harmony etc. are no more than artifacts of analysis. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 5:05 am Post subject:
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Doobah wrote: | Is this contrapuntal? |
Yep. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 6:52 am Post subject:
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I like the analogy of the shadow which is not even implicit in the ball of wire outside of a context that includes the flashlight. Of course there are many ways to interpret the shadow, with the possibility of disagreement.
Doobah wrote: | Is this contrapuntal? |
Yep. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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opg
Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 954 Location: Berkeley, CA, US
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:03 am Post subject:
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Nice arrangement! |
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Doobah
Joined: Dec 03, 2005 Posts: 40 Location: Crackney
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:38 am Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | Yeah, I do.
I'm not classically trained, but from what I've worked out counterpoint is any situation where a melodically important instrument (in my case the bass) plays a note which digresses from the expected.
For example if the chords were C(M), A(m), F(M) and the bass played C, A, A then the last A is a counterpoint. Is that right?
Actually, it might be when you use the A to go into the key of A(M).
A cello by any other name would sound as sweet!
Looks like I'm about to learn something new from this forum again! That's why I love hanging out here!! |
In that context, does counterpoint demand multiple parts, or could a solo be contrapuntal?
[Where do I post my songs, I have some contrapuntal bits and some other bit's and pieces I would love you to hear...] |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 8:55 am Post subject:
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Genereally speaking, counterpoint requires more than one voice, but you can have contrapuntal writing for solo violin or cello. You can play multiple voices on many solo instruments. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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opg
Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 954 Location: Berkeley, CA, US
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Posted: Thu Apr 06, 2006 11:12 am Post subject:
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mosc wrote: | Genereally speaking, counterpoint requires more than one voice, but you can have contrapuntal writing for solo violin or cello. You can play multiple voices on many solo instruments. |
In fact, the cello is very popular for this. What a great instrument! |
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Doobah
Joined: Dec 03, 2005 Posts: 40 Location: Crackney
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