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bigtex



Joined: Mar 30, 2006
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:12 pm    Post subject: Modular Synth forum Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The quotes here are from a PM to Mosc.

What do other people think about having a dedicated Modular Synth forum? I was looking for the right place to discuss hardware modulars (MOTM, Blacet, etc) and could only find the Modular Synthesis forum under the How To group.

I figure it would make sense for there to be a dedicated Modular Synthesizer forum under the Instruments and Equipment group. I'm looking for info on hardware, but maybe software modulars and Nord soft modulars would go well there, too.

I know there's a dedicated DIY forum, which is a great place to discuss DIY modular gear, but a forum for commercially made stuff, as well as possibly some DIY or modification stuff, might be in order. Maybe even some help for people making Paia or Blacet kits.

Does anybody have any input?

mosc wrote:
You are right, this modular synthesis topic is misplaced. We wanted this to be a very broad topic to include G2s and softsynths. You know, techniques that apply to modular synthesis, not equipment. It could include DIY - why not. The how to forum is not the right place. Maybe composition is a better place... I don't know... Maybe it would be good to open this up the the community for input. How about posting your comments on the "electro-music.com" forum so we can get more input?

--Howard

bigtex wrote:
Hey Mosc,

There doesn't seem to be a modular synth discussion forum. There's the modular synth how-to forum, but I thought maybe there should be one for modulars (that aren't the DIY variety) under the Instruments and Equipment header.

You know, a place to discuss Blacet, Paia, MOTM, Wiard, Modcan, Cyndustries, etc, etc.

Also, there's a lot of other musicfromouterspace.com stuff under the SoundLab forum, so maybe that forum should have a more general title like RJWsoft or Ray Wilson or something.

Either way, thanks for making such a gread discussion forum!
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You see, way back we felt that a lot of modular synth issues would be better if handled in some kind of "all encompassing all things modular" forum. That said, there is a lot of very interesting general modular synth stuff hidden away inside the G2 forum.

The best place for a modular synth forum? Well, the only place that makes sense is "Instruments and Equipment" Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok lets mess things up again Very Happy

Hey we have an issue with the electro-music.com coloring in code areas !

[edited the double thingy out]

Code:

Forum index
|
|___News...
|   |___Apple Computers
|   |___Concerts and Festivals
|   |___Conferences and Journals
|   |___Gear News
|   |___New Releases
|   |___Miscellaneous News
|
|___Reviews
|___Commentary and Editorials
|___How-tos
|   |___Developers' Corner
|   |___Manuals, Instructions, and Documents
|   |___Modular Synthesis
|   |___Production - engineering/mixing
|   |___Surround
|
|___Composition
|   |___lofi
|
|___Introduce Yourself
|
|___Online Music
|   |___mix/remix
|
|___Wanted, For Sale, Opportunites and Requests
|   |___Equipment/Software Wanted and For Sale
|   |___Opportunities Wanted and Available
|   |___Venues
|   |___Visual and Sonic Material, Wanted and Available
|
|___Schmooze
|   |___Miscellaneous Photo Gallery
|
|___[b][i][color=#255293]electro-music 2006[/color][/i][/b]
|___[b][i][color=#255293]electro-music.com[/color][/i][/b]
|
|___Artists
|   |___Amy X Neuburg
|   |___Beth Anderson
|   |___Christopher Orczy
|   |___Howard Moscovitz
|   |___Hypnotique
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|   |___Mikronesia
|   |___Red Skull
|   |___Seraph
|   |___Stein Grebstad
|   |___Static Strobe Emitter
|   |___Roland Kuit
|   |___Xeroid Entity
|
|___Instruments and Equipment
|   |___General Discussion
|   |___MIDI Controllers
|   |
|   |___Modular synths
|   |   |___General discussion
|   |   |___Cwejman Sound
|   |   |___Clavia Nord Modular
|   |       |___Bugs
|   |       |___NM Classic (NM1 or G1)
|   |       |___Nord Modular Discussion
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|   |       |___G2 Patches - Completed
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|   |       |   |___Audio In
|   |       |   |___Bass
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|   |       |   |___Drum
|   |       |   |___External Control
|   |       |   |___Fantasy
|   |       |   |___FX
|   |       |   |___Lead
|   |       |   |___Organs
|   |       |   |___Pad
|   |       |   |___Piano
|   |       |   |___Sequencer - automatic (noodles)
|   |       |   |___Sequencer - interactive
|   |       |   |___Synth
|   |       |
|   |       |___G2 Building Blocks
|   |       |___G2 Patches - Experimental
|   |       |___G2 Performances - Completed
|   |       |___G2 Performances - Experimental
|   |       |___G2 Performances - Noodles
|   |       |___G2 Patch Archive
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|   |
|   |___Software
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|   |   |___Reaktor
|   |   |___Soft synths
|   |
|   |___Other synths
|   |   |___Alesis Andromeda
|   |   |___DSI Evolver
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|   |
|   |___DIY Synths
|   |   |___Sound Lab
|   |   |___Papariel Systems
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|   |
|   |___Other electronic musical instruments
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|   |
|   |___Patch Archive
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|
|
|___Venues, Associations, Organizations and Communities
|   |___Muse Cafe - Chicago
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Last edited by Blue Hell on Tue May 09, 2006 3:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
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bigtex



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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You've got circuit bending twice.

Otherwise, I like the new heirarchy. In fact, I was just wondering why the Clavia stuff wasn't under the Instruments and Equipment section...

Anyway, thanks for fulfilly my request!
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, the Clavia hierarchy is quite large and it has a lot of contributers and readers, that could be a reason to place it nearer to the front door.

In the tree view above I tried to reflect your proposal, so it would be easier to discuss it.

I'm not opposed to anything yet Very Happy

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 3:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Perhaps "Other Synths" should have a slew of synth manufacturers under it. It might be nice to expand Alesis to have subforums for the Ion/Micron as well. I'll have plenty to discuss about my Micron as soon as it gets back fromt he shop Smile

For example, there could be a Yamaha section, too. A genearal FM synthesis under that might be good. Even though there aren't many new FM synths made today, I still think FM is cool and worth discussing.

But.... maybe too many subforums is a bad thing. Perhaps too much division of information would make stuff harder to find and split up discussions...

I'm kind of a newbie around here, so take anything I say with a grain of salt.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These are reasonable suggestions. Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The modular section is a compromise. It came from many people starting to ask general synthesis questions in the G2 section because the perception of some people was that that was the only section that was being read. In fact some G2 people thought it was the only section that existed at all!

I thought (and still think) that it's a great shame that there isn't more intergration between the G2 section and sections like the soundlab one or the MAX/MSP one. It's not like the techniques involved are drastically different.

Generally I think that in electronic music there is too much emphasis on speciffic implementations (most often even speciffic products) and not that much on the overall principles, aesthetic questions or playing techniques. I have therefor long advocated that the G2 section as well as the MAX (and so on) sections should be sub-sections of a larger "modular synthesis" one. In the main section the overall techniques could be discussed and ideas could be freely traded between users of various systems while system-speciffic matters could be placed in their respective sections.

I now think that this is a nice idea but somewhat idealist. It's starting to look many musicians themselves see little need for this larger picture and instead prefer to focus on their speciffic instrument and the questions it leads to for them. To me this is a great shame; I myself often turn to the Csound handbook regardless of what system I'm working in (which typically isn't csound!) and I'd like to see others enjoy such enriching sources as well. It seems that this is a losing battle because we'd be fighting against all the marketing in the instrument world at the moment which places much importance on products over principles.

So; I'm not at all in favour of structuring the whole board by brands but if it turns out that most people are then so be it. I do have to say that that I'm very much opposed to the idea of making "FM" a sub-section of a future "Yamaha" one. At one concert I recently attended the composer of a piece explained that it was written in his own FM synth which he had styled after a flight-sim because he had heard that that was the common way to controll FM.... I can completely understand why people see FM as linked to Yamaha but I utterly fail to see why that's a link anyone would like to preserve.

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A short intermission. Applause.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No offense to the Clavia G2 folks, but I rarely read any of it because I don't own a Nord. But it seems to me that the G2 brings quite a few folks to electro-music, and that's a good thing. I think having subtopics of different brands of synths doesn't really work (other than Clavia), since most brands already have well-established forums. Ie. Waldorf, Reaktor, etc. However, it seems that an all-brand inclusive Modular Synth forum would be quite nice. I don't own a modular system (although someday I will), but I look forward to Per's monthly column. I have been reading Big Tex's modular threads. I think most info about modulars can be of interest to any synth-head since the concepts can apply to most subtractive synths. So, I would love to see a Modular forum setup here. There are others around the net, but I feel electro-music is my homebase and my community. I'd like to see if a modular subsection would thrive here.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Agreed. I was going a little overboard with all of the extra forums I was suggesting, but a general Modular Synth discussion forum would be great.

I'm sure there's tons of great info in the Clavia forums, but I don't own one either and I'm probably not going to trudge through that forum very often. Thought with the decreasing price of the G1 Nord Modular, it is definitely getting tempting.

Anyway... sorry to ruffle feathers.

I'm glad this place is here. Most of the other synth discussion forums or mailing lists I've been on are prone to flame wars and brand loyalist fanboys, etc. All I want to talk about is circuit ideas and synthesis techniques. I've definitely found a good place for that. The people here are smart and level headed.

Thanks for the great forum!
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great moderators! They keep the riff raff under control.
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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, after the tremendous success that was my "let's move the G2 section" plan which beat even communism in the "idealism", "unimplementable" and "unpopular" categories I'd like to propose something new and equally unworkable.

I'd like to sugest that we only have a very vague idea what modular synthesis actually *is* as such but that practically speaking what we considder to be modular is closely linked to using signal routing in a personalised expressive manner.

Let me explain. I would say that Zappa's infamous stattic modular setup meant to emulate a brass section (I think? Wan?) should no longer be considdered a "modular" as such and is in practice more like -say- a Clavia Nord Lead in that it's modular in the underlying structure but not actively used as such, On the other hand I have no problem with calling a setup consisting of a tone generator, I good mixer and a box of guitar pedals a "modular".

Furthermore I think that the expressive use of signal routing is the important thing that the system mentioned have in common, it's the largest cause of questions, particularly where abstractions are concerned and the border between this and the use of interfaces is IMHO (but I'm not alone) *the* largest hurdle for electronic music in this decade (and probably the next as well at this rate!).

Hence I feel that if we need a section it should be this one.

Of cource such a section would be a dramatic failure.

Aside from the Clavia one and the Soundlab ones -as Mohoyoho pointed out- instrument speciffic sections don't work all that well. I imagine MAX fanatics would rather post to a specialised and established forum or list for their needs.

I still think that what actually matters is how instruments link to expression, to composition, to eachother and to the performer but once again; for reasons that are utterly beyond me nobody seems to have lots of questions there. It apears that people either let such matters be guided by a combination of trial&error and being guided by the existing and advertised posibilities of their instruments or zealously guard their thoughts and techniques. Articles on such matters are few and far inbetween, online discussion seems next to non-existant. What we need may not be a new section as much as the large cultural shift that would create it's demand.

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mohoyoho wrote:
Great moderators! They keep the riff raff under control.


Oh, it's either/or? Can't I be both riff raff AND moderator?

:¬p

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PostPosted: Tue May 09, 2006 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I still think that what actually matters is how instruments link to expression, to composition, to eachother and to the performer but once again; for reasons that are utterly beyond me nobody seems to have lots of questions there. It apears that people either let such matters be guided by a combination of trial&error and being guided by the existing and advertised posibilities of their instruments or zealously guard their thoughts and techniques. Articles on such matters are few and far inbetween, online discussion seems next to non-existant. What we need may not be a new section as much as the large cultural shift that would create it's demand.


Actually, I do think we have briefly touched upon several of these points now and then. I am sure we will see more of this. Good points.

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for all the great discussion and suggestions.

Blue Hell's suggestion to reorganize the forums is a good one. I once had it organized that way, with the clavia stuff down in the instruments and equipment. It seems that back in 2004 there was a bit of give and take in the Nord Modular community about using a forum instead or as an adjunct to the email list. It was suggested by someone I really respect that we should move the Clavia stuff up to the highest level. Let's see, who made that suggestion? Was it... oh yes... it was Blue Hell himself... Laughing

Anyway, if you look at the forum index page, you'll see that sub forums are only shown that are one level down. Therefore, if we moved the Clavia stuff down one level, there would only be one forum indicated for the Clavia stuff - which is about 50% of the posts on the forum. Seems like Jan's suggestion to put it at the highest level was a good idea because it brought a lot of members to the site. Without the NM crew, we would not have as good a community.

If we had a sub-forum for modular synthesizers and Clavia was in that - then it wouldn't even show up on the forum index page. That would be no good.

-==========

As for a general discussion on modular synthesis, that's what the current forum is intended to do.

How about this, a new category

Discussion
- Composition
- Modular Synthesis
- Schmooze
- electro-music.com
- Introduce Yourself

That would be easy to do as all we would be doing is moving some forums around and getting rid of some categories.

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:

Let me explain. I would say that Zappa's infamous stattic modular setup meant to emulate a brass section (I think? Wan?) should no longer be considdered a "modular" as such and is in practice more like -say- a Clavia Nord Lead in that it's modular in the underlying structure but not actively used as such, On the other hand I have no problem with calling a setup consisting of a tone generator, I good mixer and a box of guitar pedals a "modular".


Yes, afaik Zappa used his EMU modular to emulate a brass section and didn't change the patch structure, at least not for a rather long time. But this is the *use* of a modular synth as a prepatched synth. You can also *use* some prepatched stuff together in a modular way.

------ and now the forum classification scheme ----

I think this forum structure suffers from the same symptoms as any patch categorization. Someone remembers this discussion on the original NM mailing list? In short we agreed that no single classification scheme is sufficient for the retrieval of patches. There are too many contexts to classify patches on and a linear structure can only support one context. (Kofi would try to come up with the be-all-end-all structure (hey, were is Kofi?)).

The em forum is also structured on one context, i mean that each topic in electro-music.com is attached to exactly one leaf level forum category while its content is applicable to more categories. Maybe it would be nice if the poster could mark a topic relevant for a number of categories, f.i. a G2 topic could be marked relevant for the "Modular" subforum, or for the "Composition forum", if it contains content on this subjects also. Then it would also show up in that subforum(s). It would make topics more findable from different contexts.

Just a thought.

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
TLet's see, who made that suggestion? Was it... oh yes... it was Blue Hell himself... Laughing


I'm not really suggesting anything, I just made a picture of what bigtex said, or rather of what I thought he said.

But still I'm not as opposed as I was Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wan wrote:
(hey, were is Kofi?).


Last time I read him was a few weeks ago or so on the NM list.

Quote:

Maybe it would be nice if the poster could mark a topic relevant for a number of categories
[...]
Just a thought.

But an interesting one !

One problem maybe, that is ... people being too lazy & unsure... but moderators could maybe do it.

Think this somehow might fit within some suggestions Howard made in the past about having lists of interesting topics.

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:


How about this, a new category

Discussion
- Composition
- Modular Synthesis
- Schmooze
- electro-music.com
- Introduce Yourself

That would be easy to do as all we would be doing is moving some forums around and getting rid of some categories.


I think it is a good idea to clean up the top level a bit, and so this seems like a good idea to me.

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PostPosted: Thu May 11, 2006 1:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm working on the list thing now. I've written and ripped it up three times already. The more I think of it, the more I like it, but the harder it is to code as the details come forth. Mad
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dnny



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

...
That would be easy to do as all we would be doing is moving some forums around and getting rid of some categories.


IMO. I'd like to suggest that the "Papariel Systems" would be removed and the two post should be moved to DIY Synths.

Tech talk from Developers' Corner could also be moved to DIY Synths.

daniel

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, I moved the forums around a little after creating the Discussion highest level forum. Also took Dnny's suggestion. Thanks...
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:


I have therefor long advocated that the G2 section as well as the MAX (and so on) sections should be sub-sections of a larger "modular synthesis" one. In the main section the overall techniques could be discussed and ideas could be freely traded between users of various systems while system-speciffic matters could be placed in their respective sections.



i like this idea too.... it just makes good sense..to me anyway

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

How about this, a new category

Discussion
- Composition
- Modular Synthesis
- Schmooze
- electro-music.com
- Introduce Yourself


may i sugegst that 'schmooze' be it's own section....under "general discussion" or some such...same with 'introduce yourself'...?

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