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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:27 am Post subject:
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But aren't most of these "keys" just the same thing transposed up or down? _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:37 am Post subject:
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seraph wrote: | chuck wrote: | I try not to be 'in' any key. In fact I try not to use specific pitches. | that's what academic avant-gardists have tried for the last 60 years. |
I seem to be missing something here, seraph. What do you intend for that reply to convey? _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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seraph
Editor
Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:41 am Post subject:
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bachus wrote: | seraph wrote: | chuck wrote: | I try not to be 'in' any key. In fact I try not to use specific pitches. | that's what academic avant-gardists have tried for the last 60 years. |
I seem to be missing something here, seraph. What do you intend for that reply to convey? |
well..simply that it's something that has been done for a long time. nothing else _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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orczy
Joined: Mar 30, 2005 Posts: 161 Location: Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:19 pm Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | But aren't most of these "keys" just the same thing transposed up or down? |
Indeed. They have the same step patterns of half and whole steps. Well, the major and minor have different step patterns. This is where the modes come in. each mode has a different pattern, so therefore different intervals between notes, ie in the locrian a minor second, the fifth is flattened (so no perfect fifth) and a flattened seventh (so no leading note) Very tasty, as the tonal direction disappears. |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:14 pm Post subject:
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Yeah,
as the pattern of notes and half notes changes I can see that changes the whole functionality of the scale, but the key of Am is the key of Dm transposed down by 5 semitones yeah?
Maybe it's just the way my musicality works, but in the world of electronic music especially, the actual frequency is a bit arbitrary. So the important thing to me is the intervals.
I only know 1 major scale, 1 minor scale etc. Whether it is A or D just depends on where you start. (or whether the oscillators are in tune)
Does that make sense, or am I still missing something?
As always, I'm more than happy to learn something new. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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dewdrop_world
Joined: Aug 28, 2006 Posts: 858 Location: Guangzhou, China
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 12:15 pm Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | But aren't most of these "keys" just the same thing transposed up or down? |
In equal temperament, yes.
In non-equal temperaments the whole and half step patterns are transposed but the actual interval ratios can be slightly different. And there were conventions in the Baroque and Classical eras associating certain keys with certain moods, like c-minor for Sturm-und-Drang heroic struggle (IIRC, been a long time since my music history classes!).
All this is lost with modern synths (at least out of the box). But I am not convinced that piano tuners actually tune the instruments to precise equal temperament. Just a gut feeling, but I think there are some discrepancies, perhaps the sonic equivalent of al dente.
This reminds me to add tunability to my ModalSpec class in SuperCollider -- good discussion folks.
James _________________ ddw online: http://www.dewdrop-world.net
sc3 online: http://supercollider.sourceforge.net |
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mosc
Site Admin
Joined: Jan 31, 2003 Posts: 18197 Location: Durham, NC
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2006 2:42 pm Post subject:
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dewdrop_world wrote: | But I am not convinced that piano tuners actually tune the instruments to precise equal temperament. Just a gut feeling, but I think there are some discrepancies, perhaps the sonic equivalent of al dente. |
Certainly, in the era before electronic tuners, getting exact equal temperment tuning manually was rather difficult and every piano tuner made their own compromises. Nowadays, I think the tuners are causing things to standardize a bit - at least that's my impression. _________________ --Howard
my music and other stuff |
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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Antimon
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 4145 Location: Sweden
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:51 am Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | Yeah,
as the pattern of notes and half notes changes I can see that changes the whole functionality of the scale, but the key of Am is the key of Dm transposed down by 5 semitones yeah?
Maybe it's just the way my musicality works, but in the world of electronic music especially, the actual frequency is a bit arbitrary. So the important thing to me is the intervals.
I only know 1 major scale, 1 minor scale etc. Whether it is A or D just depends on where you start. (or whether the oscillators are in tune)
Does that make sense, or am I still missing something?
As always, I'm more than happy to learn something new. |
Some people who have the talent and/or training can name a note just by hearing it, or sing it accurately from a score sheet without prior guidance (btw, what is the english term for this? In swedish it's called "absolut gehör"). They might experience music differently as it was transposed up or down... I don't know. Sometimes I imagine that I hear the nature of a chord progression changing when I switch keys (I don't have good "gehör"), but I'm not sure.
/Stefan _________________ Antimon's Window
@soundcloud @Flattr home - you can't explain music |
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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:47 am Post subject:
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Antimon wrote: | what is the english term for this? In swedish it's called "absolut gehör") |
perfect pitch (in Italian: "orecchio assoluto") _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:50 am Post subject:
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Yeah,
In English it's called perfect pitch. I don't have "perfect" pitch, but I can whistle a C above middle A and it's usually within 10-20 cents. (when middle A is at 440Hz)
I think what I'm really getting at is that it's all relative. If you wrote a whole album in the key of C, and just one song on there was in Fm, that song would stand out from the rest. It would sound more sad or exotic or dreamy or however else you want to describe it.
If you then took the whole album (including that song) and transposed it up by 3 semitones, or down by 80cents, that song would still stand out in exactly the same way.
Or would it?
I'm starting to double guess my own opinion now!
That's one of the things I love about this forum. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:27 am Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus wrote: | Yeah,
In English it's called perfect pitch. |
In the US it's most often called absolute pitch. Perfect pitch usually refers to the ability to recognize and reproduce pitches once an initial reference pitch is given. But these distinctions do not seem absolute. _________________ The question is not whether they can talk or reason, but whether they can suffer. -- Jeremy Bentham |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:07 am Post subject:
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Well, I stand corrected, again. _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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Keysandslots
Joined: Aug 18, 2006 Posts: 266 Location: Mississauga, Ontario
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 6:54 am Post subject:
Do you have a favourite key while composing? Major or minor? |
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Perfect pitch, at least as I've heard the term used over the past 40 years, refers to the ability to sing or recognize the actual pitch of a note. I think absolute pitch means the same thing. We also used to refer to relative pitch, which is the ability to recognize a note or interval given a known starting pitch.
I had a keyboard teacher at Humber College who did not have perfect pitch but he did have amazing relative pitch. We also had a bass player who had perfect pitch. We would sit in ear training classes and rather than walk over to the piano to hit a reference pitch, the instructor would say "Danny, give me an A" and Danny would sing an A. Amazing.
Acoustic pianos are stretch tuned because equal-tempered intervals are not perfect, they are an approximation. As you go down from middle C, the notes are tuned progressively more flat, and as you go up, progessively more sharp. I even had my Rhodes stretch tuned. The Wikipedia reference is sort of correct, although the inharmonicity applies to any instrument playing in an equal-tempered environment.
Check out Wendy Carlos' "Beauty in the Beast", there are some neat examples of alternate tuning systems on the CD.
Randy |
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v-un-v
Janitor
Joined: May 16, 2005 Posts: 8933 Location: Birmingham, England, UK
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:08 am Post subject:
Re: Do you have a favourite key while composing? Major or mi Subject description: Major or Minor Keys |
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renevanderwouden wrote: | What's yours? Is in mostly in major or minor?
Mine are:
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It all depends if I'm up for slitting my wrists at that time or on the happy pills
Major 12th's -or is that 7ths?- I haven't a clue what I'm talking about here.... you know, those sooper-happie Pat Metheny/ Tom Jenkinson nicey-nice chords always drive me to slashing my wrists!!
Been listening to Richard Strauss' "Four last songs" quite a lot recently- don't know what key it's in, but it's very beautiful
I can't tell you what chords I like because on the whole it doesn't matter, as long as it sounds right at the time _________________ ACHTUNG!
ALLES TURISTEN UND NONTEKNISCHEN LOOKENPEEPERS!
DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE IST NICHT FÜR DER GEFINGERPOKEN UND MITTENGRABEN! ODERWISE IST EASY TO SCHNAPPEN DER SPRINGENWERK, BLOWENFUSEN UND POPPENCORKEN MIT SPITZENSPARKSEN.
IST NICHT FÜR GEWERKEN BEI DUMMKOPFEN. DER RUBBERNECKEN SIGHTSEEREN KEEPEN DAS COTTONPICKEN HÄNDER IN DAS POCKETS MUSS.
ZO RELAXEN UND WATSCHEN DER BLINKENLICHTEN. |
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bachus
Joined: Feb 29, 2004 Posts: 2922 Location: Up in that tree over there.
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dewdrop_world
Joined: Aug 28, 2006 Posts: 858 Location: Guangzhou, China
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Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 8:14 pm Post subject:
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Uncle Krunkus's mention of Fm reminds me also that older instruments such as the one-keyed Baroque flute have quite distinct timbres for each note. On the Baroque flute, notes within the D major scale and closely related scales like G major have a fairly uniform sound but chromatic notes, especially G#/Ab and A#/Bb, can have a darker, more "covered" sound due to the split fingering.
So when Bach writes a cantata movement in F minor with a prominent flute solo, it's meant to be deep in the shadows. The affect would be totally lost if it were transposed to E minor, just one semitone away, because the notes would have a clearer sound.
(That, from the very composer of the Well-Tempered Clavier [IIRC, well-tempered is not exactly the same as equal-tempered].)
The Industrial Age ripped the character out of so many instruments with the urge to rationalize and "clean up" the sound... probably why I prefer listening to early music on period instruments rather than the 19th-century warhorses any day.
James _________________ ddw online: http://www.dewdrop-world.net
sc3 online: http://supercollider.sourceforge.net |
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Uncle Krunkus
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Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 4761 Location: Sydney, Australia
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:32 am Post subject:
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So I stand vindicated on the Perfect Pitch thing, but Dewdrops point about the inherent timbre of certain scales is a very good one.
You learn something new everyday! Unless you belong to the electro-music forum, like me, in which case you might learn a couple of new things in a day!! _________________ What makes a space ours, is what we put there, and what we do there. |
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opg
Joined: Mar 29, 2004 Posts: 954 Location: Berkeley, CA, US
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Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:07 am Post subject:
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dewdrop_world wrote: | Uncle Krunkus's mention of Fm reminds me also that older instruments such as the one-keyed Baroque flute have quite distinct timbres for each note. On the Baroque flute, notes within the D major scale and closely related scales like G major have a fairly uniform sound but chromatic notes, especially G#/Ab and A#/Bb, can have a darker, more "covered" sound due to the split fingering.
James |
Hmm. Never thought about that. Very interesting. Timbres are very important. Think of a muted Rhodes piano. Soft, simple major chords can be the most wonderfully depressing.... _________________ One Player Game | OPG on SoundCloud |
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kkissinger
Joined: Mar 28, 2006 Posts: 1354 Location: Kansas City, Mo USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:29 am Post subject:
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One of my struggles when composing or transcribing work is to select the key for the work.
When using equal-tempered tuning, it would seem that the choice of key is arbitrary. However, with the passage of time the choice of key has become extremely important to me.
To digress from electronic music -- when working with choirs often a work that is lacking in the written key takes on almost magical qualities when transposed. After all, when dealing with voices, the tonality changes with key. One striking example is the Byrd "Ave Verum" that is published in the key of a-minor. However, when transposed down a half-step the resulting vocal blend is unbelievably sweet. Of course, voices when pushed to the extremes of their registers take on a different "force" than notes that fit comfortably within the range.
If you are working with patches that utilize a fixed-filter bank, then you would experience the same effect -- that a change of key changes the timbre of the entire work. Or, say your filters are set to not track exactly with the pitch -- then the timbre changes with key.
Another issue is overtones. On higher pitches more of the overtones are pushed out of the range of hearing. A lower key suggests, then, that more of the overtones will be audible.
Another theory that has been suggested is that various human body cavities resonate at certain frequencies. If this is so, then a change of key would change the impact of the music on the listener. Perhaps someone knows more about this.
I tend to like music that modulates, and the choice of key (i.e. -- the tessitura) is as much a part of the magic as are the melodies, rhythms, harmonies, timbres, etc.
Oh... a favorite key? Twenty years ago I would have said "definitely g-minor". Today: any key that has notes in it! |
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ThreeFingersOfLove
Joined: Oct 21, 2004 Posts: 162 Location: Greece
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 1:36 am Post subject:
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Quote: | Uncle Krunkus wrote:
But aren't most of these "keys" just the same thing transposed up or down?
Indeed. They have the same step patterns of half and whole steps. Well, the major and minor have different step patterns. This is where the modes come in. each mode has a different pattern, so therefore different intervals between notes, ie in the locrian a minor second, the fifth is flattened (so no perfect fifth) and a flattened seventh (so no leading note) Very tasty, as the tonal direction disappears. |
Absolutely not. Scales seem to be the same when transposed up or down, but the ear perceives pitches in a logarithmic manner. You might argue that a major fifth is still a major fifth but it is the actual frequencies that comprise a chord that matters most. (At least for me)
A good piano-tuner never tunes octaves in the same manner. This is very important and it becomes even more important as hearing perception matures.[/quote] |
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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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ThreeFingersOfLove
Joined: Oct 21, 2004 Posts: 162 Location: Greece
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject:
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A perfect fifth is another name for a major fifth. |
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seraph
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Joined: Jun 21, 2003 Posts: 12398 Location: Firenze, Italy
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 11:23 pm Post subject:
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ThreeFingersOfLove wrote: | A perfect fifth is another name for a major fifth. |
it sounds Greek to me _________________ homepage - blog - forum - youtube
Quote: | Don't die with your music still in you - Wayne Dyer |
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No'am
Joined: Sep 14, 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Israel
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Posted: Fri Sep 15, 2006 1:44 am Post subject:
Keys |
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A few observations:
Playing acoustic guitar, when playing chords in the first position, the different voicings of the chords make a big difference - ie G does not sound like D transposed five semitones. Of course, these limitations don't exist on a keyboard.
Most of the music which I create will eventually be sung ... by me, and as I don't have an astounding range, I have to transpose the music to fit my voice. I've noticed that over the years my singing voice is deepening, so keys are changing.
When sequencing a disk, the songs' keys become important. Whilst it's definitely possible to have one song starting on the same chord on which the previous song finishes, I wouldn't do this all time. Similarly, I wouldn't finish one song in C and start the next in F#.
Musicologist Andrew Keeling made a great fuss about the different keys used in "The court of the crimson king", and how they are all related. I think that he overdid it in this respect. |
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