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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
G2X vs MicroModular Mp3 Comparison
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G2X 24 vs NM1 18 bit DA
I prefer G2's DA
66%
 66%  [ 8 ]
I prefer NM1's DA
33%
 33%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 12

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alfredsolax



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:04 pm    Post subject: G2X vs MicroModular Mp3 Comparison
Subject description: Same patch, same midi...Here the files!!!
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Hi everyone! Just sold a G2X, after rebuying my MicroModular. This is a simple test. Same MIDI file, same audio levels. MOTU 2408 MKIII for recording.
The patch is very simple - created for ToTo's Rosanna solo:)
To my ears the Micro wins: most rich and precise!

18 vs 24 bit...

So?

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.


g2x.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  g2x.mp3
 Filesize:  1.34 MB
 Downloaded:  602 Time(s)


micro.mp3
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  micro.mp3
 Filesize:  1.34 MB
 Downloaded:  607 Time(s)


micro.pch
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  micro.pch
 Filesize:  1.7 KB
 Downloaded:  222 Time(s)


g2x.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  g2x.pch2
 Filesize:  2.89 KB
 Downloaded:  699 Time(s)


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Last edited by alfredsolax on Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:11 pm    Post subject: Re: G2X vs MicroModular Mp3 Comparison
Subject description: Same patch, same midi...Here the files!!!
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Alfredsolax wrote:
Hi everyone! Just sold a G2X, after rebuying my MicroModular. This is a simple test. Same MIDI file, same audio levels. MOTU 2408 MKIII for recording.

To my ears the Micro wins: most rich and precise!

18 vs 24 bit...

So?


Could you post the patches for both? Did you use the g2ools converter or hand convert the patches?

Thanks,
q
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These are much closer than I expected. If I had to define any difference, I would say that the micro has a fraction more aliasing. Thanks for posting.

BTW the sawtooth on the G2X is inverted from that in the micro. Most probably nothing to do with the sound character though Smile

I think Clavia made a genuine attempt to improve the basic sound of the G2, because of many complaints about the sound of the classic (buzzy/digital sounding).
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qfingers



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't know but I thought they were very-very close. It looks like you did use the converter. I never thought I got that close. No offense, but I'm impressed at the equivalance of the patches, not the differences. I was hoping for a close approximation from the g2ools converter but I wasn't expecting that close. 3phases models built into g2ools really helped with the convertion. I'm pretty impressed given I've never heard the NM1.

Very cool!!!!!

q
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

First impression was that to me the G2 seemed to have somewhat more body, the classic one seeming somewhat more hollow. After a few listens I can't tell the difference anymore, there is a lot of high end fuzzy stuff. maybe an mp3 effect.

Patches like this one translate pretty well under g2ools, it's only for some pretty specific stuff that differences become clear.

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kcinsu



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the first thing that I notice, is that the micro has a wider stereo image.
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kcinsu



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it would be interesting if you were to post another example. This time, label the mp3s as "A" and "B" and do not tell anyone which is which!

Then there could be a poll, and see which one people like the sound of better. Then reveal the identity later Smile
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kcinsu



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The G2X is definitely fatter in the lower frequencies.

I first thought the G2X sounded slightly less bright, but when I listened to a passage that was only in the mid-highs, I could hear no difference. I think the emphasized bass plays a slight psychoacoustic trick.

Also, the G2X is definitely more precise. On the first arpeggiated lick (the first line after the first silence... only a few seconds in) , if you listen to both on repeat, alternating (I threw this into logic, cut short sections, and looped them, going back and forth) you can hear that the micro is slurring the line a bit, whereas the G2X hits them all.
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kcinsu



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the G2X sounds more present to me.
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kcinsu



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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

here is the micro, then the G2X playing the same lick (with a slight gap, so you know where the micro starts, and the G2X begins).

What sounds best to you?

(try putting it on loop)


microtheng2x.mp3
 Description:
first the micro, then the g2x

Download
 Filename:  microtheng2x.mp3
 Filesize:  99.51 KB
 Downloaded:  542 Time(s)

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XpanderXT



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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I liked the Micro better. It sounded less sterile to me. There was more "analog" movement in the sound.

this is very surprising.
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alfredsolax



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

XpanderXT wrote:
I liked the Micro better. It sounded less sterile to me. There was more "analog" movement in the sound.

this is very surprising.


Me too!

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 8:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

XpanderXT wrote:
There was more "analog" movement in the sound.


AFAIK there is no 'built in' modeling of analog movement in the micro or G2.
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For pete's sake!!

You guys obviously have too much time on your hands! Shocked Laughing

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XpanderXT



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
XpanderXT wrote:
There was more "analog" movement in the sound.


AFAIK there is no 'built in' modeling of analog movement in the micro or G2.



It sounds like maybe the pitches of th eoscillators are not as precise or they are designed so as to not retrigger from the same start point on every note on. I'm not suggesting they have a analog modeling it just sounds less sterile.
They are mp3's so there is possibly some issue there.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

XpanderXT wrote:
It sounds like maybe the pitches of th eoscillators are not as precise or they are designed so as to not retrigger from the same start point on every note on.


Pitches are equal, but the relative phase can be different for different voices indeed - this holds for both the NM Classic and for the G2. Recompilation of a patch (adding or deleting a module, or sending it to the synth again) can change the phase relation between oscillators as well.

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XpanderXT



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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
XpanderXT wrote:
It sounds like maybe the pitches of th eoscillators are not as precise or they are designed so as to not retrigger from the same start point on every note on.


Pitches are equal, but the relative phase can be different for different voices indeed - this holds for both the NM Classic and for the G2. Recompilation of a patch (adding or deleting a module, or sending it to the synth again) can change the phase relation between oscillators as well.


can the oscillator be set to freerun (like a real analog) or do they reset on trigger (many digital synths)?

when you say adding or delelting a module or recompilation, it suggests that phase is set once and it holds that on note starts (aside from changing tuning or doing some type of freq mod). Is that what you are saying?
I am still really interested in the G2, even if they don't update the OS, because I'm about to get a new Mac and can relegate my old one to a G2. I have an old G3 runnign OS 9 still, so I might look into a old Nord Modular too.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Everything is free running always, just like an analog system. Voices (polyphony) used is not dynamic, it is "compiled" at the time the patch(es) is loaded. Pitch, volume, etc is sent to each voice as notes are received by midi or played on the keyboard. The only downside to this, is you can't have 4 patches loaded in the available slots, and decide at one point you'll play 32 notes of one sound, then later on play 32 notes of another sound. You have to choose up front how to allocate the available voices to each patch. The upside, of course, is that *every* voice is *always* running.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

XpanderXT wrote:
can the oscillator be set to freerun (like a real analog) or do they reset on trigger (many digital synths)?


Reset on trigger is an option you can patch in for the oscillators that have a reset input. When you detune the oscillators slightly, either statically or dynamically, that'll give a situation like you'd have with an analog synth.

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cappy2112



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
XpanderXT wrote:
can the oscillator be set to freerun (like a real analog) or do they reset on trigger (many digital synths)?


Reset on trigger is an option you can patch in for the oscillators that have a reset input. When you detune the oscillators slightly, either statically or dynamically, that'll give a situation like you'd have with an analog synth.


Dave Peck made some neat NM1 patches- modeled after the Chroma (the big one, NOT the Polaris). Each note would vary the pitch very slightly to simulate the osc drifting, and the the amount of pitch variation for each note was different (if I recall that patch construction correctly).
They are probably in the NM1 archive, but don't remember the name of that particular patch Sad

Dave ???

I would expect that this technique is fairly common, but not having heard a Chroma in person, I remember these Chroma patches in particular.

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XpanderXT



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

excellent info.

thanks everyone.
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CaptainPoopface



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I hear more snarl and bite in the NM version, whereas the G2 doesn't sound quite as mean. In this particular example, I would say the NM classic sounds better to me. I am a bit sad to say that.

But the difference would only be audible on a recording heard in a somewhat hi-fi environment, and only to musicians and audiophiles. For live use, the room and the bodies will eat this subtle difference and more. I will sacrifice this little bit of edge in the sound for the much greater power and control of the G2.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
For pete's sake!!

You guys obviously have too much time on your hands! Shocked Laughing


Or not enough time? Comparing synthesis engines and DAC's means detailed listening, it really makes no sense at all to use MP3 for this.

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doctorno



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Alfredsolax, the patch you have posted does not show the strength of the G2x. It is as if you would like to prove that a transistor radio is capable of more distortion than a high-end hifi-system. What is more the aliasing of the Micro Modular recording is all too obvious compared to the G2x recording.
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varice



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PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The sound quality of the Classic versus the G2... the debate continues...

I personally don't believe that using MP3 files is the best way to judge the sound quality of professional sound equipment.

Instead, I opened the NM1 and the G2X patches with the respective editors to make sure that there was not anything that would cause them to sound different on each synth (even before the sound is output by the DAC). I then noticed a *problem* in the NM1 patch (which was also faithfully coverted into the G2 patch by g2ools). This problem was apparently also noticed by Blue Hell. He mentions the phase relationship between oscillators within a patch in a reply above. To be more specific, the problem in both of the patches is with the two pulse oscillators. Both oscillators are set to the exact same frequency, but there is no way to be sure what the phase relationship is between the two oscillators. The timbre of sound of these two oscillators will change when the phase relationship between the two are different. Both the NM1 and G2 are precise enough that after each patch is loaded, each synth will keep the phase relationship of these oscillators in lock. But, as Blue Hell mentions, if either synth has the patch reloaded, resets, or recalculates a DSP load, the phase relationship will most likely be different from the previous patch instance, and therefore the timbre of the patch will also change. Because of this problem, these patches are not very good ones to use to compare these two synths.

To hear how a different phase relationship between the two pulse oscillators can cause the patch timbre to change, load the G2 patch into a G2 synth or the G2 Demo Software. Use the Patch Editor to isolate the sound of the pulse oscillators by muting the two sawtooth oscillators and all three of the active LFOs (the output LFOA1 is not connected to anything). To force the phase relationship to change each time a new note is played, connect the Gate output of the Keyboard1 module to the Sync input of the OscSlvB1 oscillator module. Now play a note repeatedly. You will hear the timbre change each time a new note on gate occurs. To really make the phase relationship timbre change more obvious (especially if listening with headphones) mix the two pulse oscillators to mono.

So, to avoid the problem with this particular patch not being able to hold the timbre consistently, I would suggest forcing the phase relationship to always be constantly changing. Simply detune one of the pulse oscillators slightly.

Note that if you were to create this patch on an analog modular, it would be virtually impossible to get the two pulse oscillators to lock phase as precisely as the Nords without actually hardsyncing one oscillator to the other. This is just one of the reasons why analog synths sound different from digitals, well designed analogs will very rarely have any two free running oscillators in perfect tune with each other or track keyboard notes perfectly.

Oh - back to the topic - I carefully compared my G2X and Nord Modular Rack a while back, but I honestly could not hear a difference between them that I would attribute solely to the DACs. The most obvious difference is that the NM Rack has more aliasing noise when high frequency pitches are played than the G2X. So, if the poll had a choice "Can't tell if the DACs sound different, but the NM1 has more aliasing noise", that is the one I would vote for.

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