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What comes after the composition?
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Synthese



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:33 pm    Post subject: What comes after the composition? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi everyone,

Hi have been nearing the completion of a project I have been working on for quite some time and I have been thinking more and more about what comes next. In other words "what am I intending to do with this music, and how are these intentions influencing the composition process?"

When I began this project I had written very little music beyond a few small snippets, primarily to utilize synthesis techniques I had been learning about. I had never really found a set of tools that let me be effective at composition and only after I determined what I needed and programmed some of my own software was I able to write anything substantial. As a result I never gave the previously mentioned questions much thought. I was just writing for my personal enjoyment. I still am, really, but now as I look upon my completed material and am happy with it I find myself wondering how my audience would react to a particular section, and contemplating changes.

This contemplation is actually pretty silly since I don't have an "audience." But then again, I am going to have all of this music written and produced, maybe I should try to get one. You might see where this process is going. Now instead of writing the music for myself I am taking a nonexistent audience into consideration. This gets even more ridiculous because I strongly doubt I would be able to do anything to get an audience. It isn't music I see as having much commercial viability (though admittedly I could be wrong), the only other option seems to be making it available for download on the Internet.

"So what is wrong with that," I hear you say, "A lot of forum members here are making their music freely downloadable." This is true, but I can't help being disinclined to the idea. I have released free stuff before (software, primarily) and in my experience people on the Internet are ungrateful [insert colorful epithet here]. I have put so much of myself into this music it kind of feels like giving it out free to a bunch of people with no respect for me as a musician or of my music as art is the ultimate indignity. I am also not keen on the idea of losing control of the music as it extends into cyberspace. Now I find myself becoming less and less motivated to finish the final couple minutes of the project, and this is a problem.

Has anyone else had similar thoughts? If so, what, if anything, helped you past this hurdle? What other sorts of things do you do with your music beyond the ones I listed above? Do you feel that taking an audience in mind when writing your music is beneficial or not when composing?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: What comes after the composition? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Synthese wrote:
Do you feel that taking an audience in mind when writing your music is beneficial or not when composing?

Hi Synthese
welcome to electro-music.com Very Happy
interesting post Exclamation I do not think "that taking an audience in mind when writing your music is beneficial" but that's me and I offer many of my songs as free download right here so...

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dewdrop_world



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 2:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I would agree that this is a very interesting post.

I think it's too simple to say that audience consideration is or is not beneficial. It might be beneficial in some ways, and it might also get in the way of some kinds of creative exploration.

This forum is dedicated to the musically unconventional, and I think there might be more of a tendency here to say "screw the audience" than you might find in other musical communities. I think that overlooks the fact that music is fundamentally about relationships. The nearest I can think of to a solitary musical tradition (prior to electronic music) is guzheng and koto music from China and Japan respectively. But even when these instruments are played in solitude, it's in the context of eastern religious traditions in which no person is ever really alone. In that sense, the playing of the music enhances awareness of one's connection to one's surroundings, to nature, etc.

The idea of making music only or primarily for oneself, and the idea that this is somehow more authentic than making music intended to be shared with others, depend on particularly Western ideas of the masterpiece, of artistic truth, and a romantic vision of the artist/composer as aesthetic prophet that went on life support not long after Mahler. The excesses of the 50s pretty much killed it, to the extent that composers laboring after the great masterpiece today seem anachronistic.

I would say that music is not worth much outside of relationship, which is usually between people but doesn't have to be.

That doesn't mean sacrificing artistic integrity to placate an audience, though. I've felt for a long time that a good musician gives the audience what they want, while a great musician gives the audience what they need (or what they didn't know they wanted until they heard it for the first time). But great musicians don't (can't) do this by ignoring the audience, or pretending that the audience is unimportant.

So I would say, do consider the audience, but also consider whether changing the music just because you think it might get a more favorable reaction creates a really honest relationship between yourself and the audience. What is more important, getting people to like you, or sharing of yourself -- your unique experience and perspective -- honestly?

James

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yup, this is an interesting post.

Should you consider the audience when writing a piece of music?

There are several obvious answers to this.

If this is a soundtrack for a movie, then of course considering the audience and the effect of the music, even style and performance, is just what was expected of you when you got the job.

If you think you are writing pop music then you have already made some decisions.

If you simply want to write your own music as good as you possibly can, then letting go of all restraints ( like considering what will make the audience NOT kick you ass ) can be beneficial.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 3:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:
The idea of making music only or primarily for oneself, and the idea that this is somehow more authentic than making music intended to be shared with others, depend on particularly Western ideas of the masterpiece, of artistic truth, and a romantic vision of the artist/composer as aesthetic prophet that went on life support not long after Mahler. The excesses of the 50s pretty much killed it, to the extent that composers laboring after the great masterpiece today seem anachronistic.



Good points.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Synthese!

I would think that disregarding the audience altogether is almost humanly impossible. Some make music to please others, some make music to spite others and some make music to keep from others. If you make your music available to others you are hardly indifferent, i.e. there must be some kind of purpose for doing so. As dewdrop_world says, music is at least in part about relationships, and even if the attitude taken is one of "screw the audience", then the audience has actually been considered in a way...

If you post your music in the online music forum chances are that you will start getting an audience Idea Smile

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Synthese



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To dewdrop_world:

You say: "music is fundamentally about relationships."

That is a good point. I think that is probably why I personally find the whole audience thing to be a sticking point. If we as musicians weren't trying to communicate something we wouldn't be writing the music in the first place.

You say: "The idea of making music only or primarily for oneself, and the idea that this is somehow more authentic than making music intended to be shared with others, depend on particularly Western ideas of the masterpiece, of artistic truth, and a romantic vision of the artist/composer as aesthetic prophet that went on life support not long after Mahler."

Well, I think there is likely a continuum as far as artistic integrity is concerned. If we have a composer that creates music for television ads that intentionally mimics preexisting music, selected via focus group then I would personally find that less artistically interesting than a composer slaving away in solitude to create a great masterpiece, even if those ads are very well executed. It is difficult for me to articulate exactly why, though. I would also point out that if a composer is writing as an "aesthetic prophet" or bearer of "artistic truth" then there is an implied intent to share their art with an audience. They might give the impression that they do not have the audience in mind, but the very fact they are trying to give that impression makes it obvious they do keep them in mind... if that makes any sense.

You say: "I've felt for a long time that a good musician gives the audience what they want, while a great musician gives the audience what they need (or what they didn't know they wanted until they heard it for the first time)."

That is a great way of thinking about things. I am definitely going to think of this the next time I sit down to write some music.

To elektro80:

You say: "If this is a soundtrack for a movie, then of course considering the audience and the effect of the music, even style and performance, is just what was expected of you when you got the job."

Actually, I *am* working on a soundtrack, but in my case it is for an old silent movie (so I am not being paid to do a job) and it is in more the Art Zoyd tradition so less importance is placed upon some of the things that are traditionally considered when making a soundtrack. You make a good point about considering the audience and the effect of the music, though. Now that I think about it, I have been subconsciously doing this all along, but I was using my own reactions as a barometer. I imagine all composers must use this technique of using themselves as an "audience" to some degree.

To DrJustice:

You say: "I would think that disregarding the audience altogether is almost humanly impossible."

That is another good point. I suppose then that the goal should be ensuring that the composer's relationship to the audience is favorable for the goal that the composer has for the music. If you are writing a pop song, you should try to remove antagonistic thoughts, for instance.

You say: "If you post your music in the online music forum chances are that you will start getting an audience"

True, but like I said, I have had some bad experiences with releasing free stuff on the internet which makes me wary of doing so. I will likely end up putting them up, though, since I don't like the idea of banishing my music into a metaphorical void.

Thanks for the comments!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dewdrop_world wrote:

I think it's too simple to say that audience consideration is or is not beneficial. It might be beneficial in some ways, and it might also get in the way of some kinds of creative exploration.

what I was trying to say is that the music I have composed that I am most satisfied with has been (very often) written with no other thought than writing something pleasing to myself. Of course, if you are writing for a client it is a completely different story.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Forgive me if I can only speak from the subjective on this. I write because I need to say something and need to say it more strongly than I need it to be heard. But there is always some desire for it to be heard--for the utterance to be comprehended.

The only way I know how to make music that satisfies me is listen to my own nervous system respond to what I write. In creation there is no audience but myself because that is the only way I can create. After the fact I sincerely hope that there are nervous systems sufficiently similar to mine that the music will resonate in them as well. And I am willing to make accommodations if my ear can recognize them as improvements or equally good but being more general comprehensible.

But even if there are others who can get it, many more will sincerely find it trash, that’s the nature of taste. So when you do put your music out there for others you have to accept that. What makes it bearable is either an ego the size of Texas or finding comfort in the listeners who get it, even if there are only one or two.

Objectively, anger is always a response to a threat, no matter how abstract or indirect. If one becomes angry when others dis one’s music it suggests that a reexamination of one’s relationship with music and one’s psyche might enhance one’s inner peace.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think it was Margaret Burke-White who said of photography, "We take pictures so we know how to see things when we aren't taking pictures". (I'm not sure I have that word for word.. but the thought it there).

And so it is with music. We compose music so we have a point of reference on what we are hearing when we aren't composing music. The act of composing music makes us who we are as musicians and people. If our music is never heard by anyone else, we are better because of the creativity/productive experience.

Praise for our work is always an enjoyed moment. But I think really that the good that comes from praise or constructive criticism is short lived in comparision to the good that comes from creating something we think is worthwhile.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Releasing music on the internet reminds me of a story:

One day a farmer set up a table on a street corner and displayed a sign that read: "I'll give you a dollar for seventy-five cents worth of change." A line formed and, sure enough, he handed out a dollar bill to each person who gave him 75 cents. Someone asked him, "Why are you doing this?" The farmer replied, "Pays better than farming."

Releasing free music may be "cheaper" than trying to sell it.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

chuck wrote:
Praise for our work is always an enjoyed moment. But I think really that the good that comes from praise or constructive criticism is short lived in comparision to the good that comes from creating something we think is worthwhile.


Well said! I can remember the times when I've been truly happy making music (and so far there aren't that many, unfortunately), and nothing beats a sudden burst of creativity, playing it back over big speakers and jumping up in the air, saying "YES! THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKIN' ABOUT!" I have a few songs people really seem to like, but those compliments can't even compare to the experience of hearing it alone right after you made it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:22 am    Post subject: What comes after the composition? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I spend alot of time playing with myself (oops, I mean, playing by myself) and playing for an audience. The thing for me is to be able to do both.

When I'm alone, I play the things I want to hear, or I just experiment, practice, try new things, whatever. I can get quite a bit of enjoyment out of discovering a new sound, or a new pattern, or getting through a difficult passage or even just keeping my chops up with some Hanons.

But having said that, there's nothing quite like interaction with a live audience to get you pumped and playing your best. The largest audience I've ever played for was around 1500 people. I went out on stage when the hall was nearly empty, sat alone at a grand piano, and started playing Christmas-ish stuff. 1/2 hour later, just as the show was going to start, I finished and looked up and there were 1500 people applauding. It was amazing and scary at the same time.

So that takes care of the extremes, but what about that grey area that started this thread, where you're putting something together and thinking about releasing it. I think there's discipline and value in looking at this from both sides. There's nothing wrong with having an audience in mind when composing something, but there's also nothing wrong with composing just for yourself, and releasing the music anyways. You will always get people who will hate what you do and people who will love what you do. I've released stuff on www.mp3unsigned.com, and will probably do more. I'm a bit more pop-oriented than most people here, I tend to fall into the "trap" of considering an audience perhaps more strongly than I should.

The bottom line is, if you're working on something and you've put some genuine effort into it, let's hear it. This forum particularly, seems to be more like a family than most so this would be the place to release your stuff first.

Randy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To speak from personal experience, I believe a mix of downloadibility (!) and hard copies is a god idea. Have some mp3's up somewhere so people can hear what you do. Some may go on to purchase a CD, most won't, but you haven't lost anything. I think of mp3's as a gift to the interested, and an ad to the unconverted!

Regarding what you should do with music once composed, I am reminded of a composition teacher I had who said that as a composer you have to believe that what you are saying is great, and that everyone should hear it. A certain amount of self belief is important here.

Sorry to bang on, but I think if you are creating music, it should be exactly what you want to hear, like, "I had to make this stuff because I wanted to hear it". On a personal level, I listen to my own music quite a lot because sometimes it is exactly what I want to hear. Mind you, it took years to get to that point!
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:23 am    Post subject: What comes after the composition? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There is a fine line that needs to be addressed with respect to "what comes after the composition?" There's a lot of material freely available....a lot of it I'd be reticent to call music but that's sort of a side issue. To be perfectly honest material that's disseminated for free usually carries a certain stigma but it's all in the ears of the beholder. So long as you catch an emotional rush to your own satisfaction that's usually sufficient enough. Once you began drafting material for other purposes things become very cloudy. The level of commitment, talent, and native, guttural musical abilities required to deliver a world class product are very elusive. Even when such a plateau is reached audience reaction can be very muted.... It's a lot like paying yourself first every two weeks. Personally when I read a log entry stating "after 3 months I just finished my latest CD" I tend to throw a Mr. Spock raised eyebrow. Just remember too many laptops loaded with gee-wiz music software is not a substitute for real songwriting particualy in the "feel" department.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

orczy wrote:
To speak from personal experience, I believe a mix of downloadibility (!) and hard copies is a god idea. Have some mp3's up somewhere so people can hear what you do. Some may go on to purchase a CD, most won't, but you haven't lost anything. I think of mp3's as a gift to the interested, and an ad to the unconverted!


This is my own inclination. I haven't done any CD's and it seems that I need to establish some presence in order to generate sales of CD's I may do in the future.

orczy wrote:
...if you are creating music, it should be exactly what you want to hear, like, "I had to make this stuff because I wanted to hear it". On a personal level, I listen to my own music quite a lot because sometimes it is exactly what I want to hear. Mind you, it took years to get to that point!


I share the same philosophy. To compose/perform music that one doesn't value -- that is, to "pander" -- can lead to cynicism. To ask other people to listen if one doesn't believe in one's own music seems hypocritical.

Grimloch wrote:
...when I read a log entry stating "after 3 months I just finished my latest CD" I tend to throw a Mr. Spock raised eyebrow.


To create a CD in three months -- all the liner notes, cover art, to compose, rehearse, record, mix, master an hour or more of music seems aggressive, indeed.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:48 am    Post subject: What comes after the composition? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

orczy wrote:

Sorry to bang on, but I think if you are creating music, it should be exactly what you want to hear, like, "I had to make this stuff because I wanted to hear it". On a personal level, I listen to my own music quite a lot because sometimes it is exactly what I want to hear.


I very much agree with the above, although it implies a certain amount of compulsion ("I HAD to make this stuff").

If you don't believe in your own music, then no one else will.

Above all, be true to yourself. Make your music the best you can make it.

I too make music; I too have some of it on a music website. I too would like people to listen to it and say "Wow!". But I don't think that I would like to make a career out of music at my current age (50). Wanting to make a commercial success out of what I do for pleasure would cause me to compromise on all the non-musical aspects of my life, and I'm not prepared to do that now.

I am quite willing to devote all the hours it takes to create and produce my music (which can vary from 0 to 20 hours a week, these days). I have no deadlines and can work at my own pace. I am not willing to devote the amount of time necessary to promote my music in order to sell a few copies of a cd. A great deal of time and effort has to be invested before things would begin to move, and even then time has to be devoted constantly in order to keep things moving.

That's what comes after the composition....

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

orczy wrote:
..., I am reminded of a composition teacher I had who said that as a composer you have to believe that what you are saying is great, and that everyone should hear it. A certain amount of self belief is important here.


kkissinger wrote:
To ask other people to listen if one doesn't believe in one's own music seems hypocritical.


As a skeptic of the first water, I find these notions extremely problematic. The most I can say about my music is that it is meaningful and important to me. I have no idea what value or virtue it may have beyond that except through, hopefully, honest feedback from others who have listened to it. But it is a difficult place to be, I admit.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:31 am    Post subject: Re: What comes after the composition? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Synthese wrote:
I have put so much of myself into this music it kind of feels like giving it out free to a bunch of people with no respect for me as a musician or of my music as art is the ultimate indignity. I am also not keen on the idea of losing control of the music as it extends into cyberspace.


Go right ahead and be unheard. There are a million other people offering free music, no one will notice if you are missing.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like this topic. It shows that we all are very good in expressing doubts about ourselves and our surroundings. Beliefs are shared, we talk with each other. I can see myself in many of the thoughts that are shared.

We all have proven that we are able to communicate using the english, written language. There is lots of confidence in each other.

Maybe we are at the point at which we can start communicating via composition? Can this discussion be expressed by our music? That might seem infeasible first of all! But would it not be great to explore the topic not (only) using words, but also via composition? I see no one here who would not be anxious to hear the result.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

phoenix wrote:
Maybe we are at the point at which we can start communicating via composition? Can this discussion be expressed by our music? That might seem infeasible first of all! But would it not be great to explore the topic not (only) using words, but also via composition? I see no one here who would not be anxious to hear the result.


This is intriguing. How do you suggest we do this?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

very interesting idea indeed..
i have never heard of an elaborate language expressed in music.
i project like that would require a very complex set of definite parameters.
maybe someone should start working on a software example Wink

as for the main topic, taking my own thoughts/philosophy on music into perspective, i could'nt ever compose for an outside audience simply because i consider myself to be the best example for the audience in question. everyone has a unique prismatic vision of music in their own minds, and while elements that are deeply personal (to you as the creator) will without doubt trigger the same profound feeling with some listeners, some will not hear it the way you do because it simply won't affect them. having this in mind during the actual composing (instead of maybe worrying about it later) will confuse you and in a worst case scenario even make you depressed.
i have been commissioned to write music for various projects but i always end up doing minor reworks of finished pieces, simply because i feel rediculous in my attempts to anticipate what the audience will think about the next pattern or whatever. so i stopped doing it (and it works fine for me NOW, no idea how it will later on Smile) i need to be totally immersed in my own world when composing. it has to feel magic for it to feel worth working on, and if i have to worry about everyone else i forget about the magic!
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For me after the composition comes the production. Yes, that's easy said. But when the music is there, I start to pick out sounds that fit best. I can easily do a composition on the piano only and then transcript it electronically.

In my head I have 2 different visions of the song. One how does sound in melody and harmony and the other in recorded sound with all the technical stuff.

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