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Restricted forums for sharing mp3's for review
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 12:28 pm    Post subject: Restricted forums for sharing mp3's for review Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Electro80 on the News forum wrote:
The use of encryption and authorization could be interesting to use with webforums for files put up for reviews etc.


There are several ways to do this with the forums. The administrator can create user groups. Forums can be restricted to user groups. Thus, it is possible to post stuff, including mp3s, that can't be downloaded or even seen if you aren't authorized.

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am aware of the fact that forums can be used that way. And it could be interesting if this community could grow and branch into closed discussion groups where composers could discuss method, style, notation and such. I am a member of certain communities where this is already happening bigtime and it is quite fruitful indeed. Two buddiesof mine just met in Lonodon today in order to work on an art project based on one of my pieces.

One inherent problem of the web is of course that a lot cannot ever be said on a public forum. Absolutely everything is searchable using google or whatever and in theory any file with an URL on a web page is all over the place within an hour or so.

And.. there might be issues with places just like this. Electro-music.com is an excellent place and I try to contribute with input in order to support the place.. but again.. this is an open place where both search engines, musicfans and composers hang around. The idea is excellent, but I am still of the opinion that some info and debate should be restricted within the composer/musician community.. and not even leaked to kids who are starting out in the bedroom. I am not trying to be fascist here, and I am not sure I even should say this out loud here.. but.. shaping a community/ or several communities.. based on who the actual members are and what they do and why.. does make sense to me. Electro-music.com is not yet large enough to accomodate this sort of darwinstic fragmentation.. but I believe I see a pattern here.. and the need to .. well. you know.. create several communities.. which of course can interact.

I am a member of several virtual communities and this is the only one which is open to anyone. Interestingly enough.. this place is the kind of place with the largest promise but with the lowest user activity.. at least right now. And I wonder why. With a memberlist of 50? 70? it should be enough to generate a larger traffic and larger amount of postings. I am not seeing many of the guys who sell their CDs here hang here.. or do I?
Not that I really expect them too - I guess they have other stuff to do somewhere else. We all need to get a life now and then... but.. mixing composers, newbies and music fans in one flat community does not neccesarily work .. at least when starting out a place like this. My comments should not be read as negative.. just my personal observations.

Well.. back to the files and the forums. My thought on authorization of files.. Apple style should be understood differently ..from the way forums could be set up. Two different things really. As the copyright holder and creator of musical works I would feel a lot more comfortable if I could control how stray copies of unreleased versions of works distributed via the web could behave on user harddisks.

And then back to forums and userbase and the community. This place died a few weeks ago due to a dead disk. OK.. and guess who spent a lot of money getting the info out of the dead disk.. Howard did.. the guy who runs this place. And Howard is doing a great job.

My thoughts on fragmenting this communty might be relevant.. if more composers.. or musicians hung out here.. but just right now we need a lot more people here.

I am sorry about using this post to take this somewhere else than what this thread is really about.. but I just want to get the other members here to.. well.. start a debate.. get a healthy discussion going and build this place together. A lot if electronic music people out there have already found their preferred communities on the web. Great. That is what communities are about. But there should be a huge potential here anyway. I am not suggesting that this place is dying.. far from it.. I am only suggesting that the members get to work. And.. Howard will probably set up forums from here to Tokyo in order to make the place suit the member activities.

Well.. hmm.. was this a rant? Hmm.. ahh.. I better have a glass of wine and get to bed.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 14, 2003 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I reread my previous post and I guess I have to make an apology to the newbies. I had no intent to offend you. This field does need new blood and everyone has been a newbie once. (In many ways all composers are newbies when starting out on a new piece of music.)

You guys feel you hafta get into this and start making music. Excellent. Lack of actual skills does not exclude having a mind for music, a talent and a vision. And.. we all know that the vision and the talent can be trained and developed if you have a mind for music.

Uhu... I guess I have just proposed that

musical talent, musical vision and "a mind for music" are different things.. and that these are singular entities separated from actual skills in music..

Howard? This is another new thread starting out, eh? What do you other guys think? Please disagree and get a debate going? Pleeeeze?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2003 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wow, a lot of serious food for thought.

Elektro80 wrote:
I am a member of several virtual communities and this is the only one which is open to anyone. Interestingly enough.. this place is the kind of place with the largest promise but with the lowest user activity.. at least right now. And I wonder why. With a memberlist of 50? 70? it should be enough to generate a larger traffic and larger amount of postings. I am not seeing many of the guys who sell their CDs here hang here.. or do I?


I think we suffered a severe set-back in May when we were off the air for most of the month. Several people who were active haven't returned. That said, these communities take a while to get going. I was not aware that the vision of one community open to everyone was so unique, but I'm glad to hear you believe it has promise. I think so to. It's been very rewarding for me, at least.

Elektro80 wrote:
but just right now we need a lot more people here...
I am not suggesting that this place is dying.. far from it.. I am only suggesting that the members get to work.

Any suggestions for getting more people to join up and participate?

One thing I've been doing, when I have time, is posting a short news item or review when I find some interesting electronic music on the web. Then I send a letter to the musicians and let them know I posted the notice.

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vijayan



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very Happy
Me likes this forum. I hang around in the shadows trying to absorb knowledge from the pros. Might be years before I make any real piece of music, but hey, feels nice if I can evesdrop on some technical talk. Guess I'm gonn abe hanging around here for like, ever Smile

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

vijayan wrote:

Guess I'm gonna be hanging around here for like, ever Smile

Great! Let us know when you have some music. If you don't think it is ready for the world, then we'll make a private forum...

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egw



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like the idea that this forum is open to anyone. All the forums I have seen are like that, though you have to at least be interested in the topic. In practice I think this one is mostly for musicians. In fact its been my experience that 90% of the fans of electronic music are musicians themselves!

These things take time to grow, they must reach a critical mass where there is enough activity to keep people coming back to check. It's only been a few months now, so I think electro-music is doing well. Lots of people don't have time to be actively involved, even if they are interested. Howard's idea of posting a review and letting that person know about the forum is a good one. Maybe we can brainstorm some other ways of bringing in new members.

Concerning private mp3s. Is there anyone among us who wouldn't be thrilled if someone wanted to hear our music enough to download it? I don't have any problem with making them public. Maybe if it's just a file being shared for discussion purposes it could be private, but then who would want to download such a file if they weren't involved in the discussion?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I see your point.

There are several issues.
First there are a few mp3 forum stalker bots around.. and those will probably become more advanced. These are programs that are built for stalking forums and downloading mp3s. Getting hit by a few of those will kill the bandwidth. At the moment those are rare.. but.. this time next year?


Second.. what about artists who have their stuff registered with somecopyright management agency? I am registering my stuff with the norwegian agency Tono. The reason I have 3 songs at MP3.com at the moment is that MP3.com has an agreement with Tono and that I have documented that I hold the rights to the songs.

Third.. some labels might dislike artists posting their own stuff in forums.

Fourth. When it comes to the actual worth of the music.. of course hobbyist music.. whatever that is.. might be just as good as pro music.. but copyright protection is an issue anyway... The great fun with newbies is how they can manage to make amazing sounds and absolutely wonderful stuff .. just like that. And I think it is important to protect their works as well as our own.


Also: It is not uncommon when starting out with music that young musicians in fact makes tribute music.. music in the vein of some artist they admire.. I have seen forums where the big thing to do is making Jean Michel Jarre music which in fact sounds more like JMJ than he manges to do himself. Some even rerecord his songs etc etc. THis is of course completely OK.. I have no problem with that. But it gets to be a problem if you do this in public. And a web forum is by default public and a this of course means that you are publishing the MP3 files.. distribution... and the nice cuddly people in lederhosen from the RIAA might spot you. Copyright management is important. You need the RIAA and agencies like that.. I need them.. We all do.. but.. sometimes copyright management gets cumbersome. The best thing to do is to take the infringement private. And not do distribution. Another is of course if people host the files themselves.. but the trend these days is hitting the site that carries that URL.. not the site that physically hosts the file. And this does make some sense... as it is the website/forum that
publishes the URL.

Yes... seemingly 80% of the fans of the music are musicians themselves.. or hobbyists.. which is in this "genre" is almost the same .-)

But this is might not be entirely true. We might not be able to see the nonmusician fans.. and we might not even understand the genre ourselves. I am a bit tired now.. and I guess I will elaborate on that one later..
Anyway.. one important goal is to broaden market for "experimental electro-acoustic and electronic music" and we must find a way to do that. I am not sure how. Music is a commodity and those have a value in the marketplace. Rule number one should probably be ( at least that is how I imagine it now..( like 3.39 Am now) ) ..to not ever give away the music .. and thus reduce it value to nothing. Promotion of the music might of course involve "giving away" some secs of the music now and then.. but that is promotion and the purpose of promotion is to sell the goods.

Why is selling important? That is how music is valued at the moment. If it sells it must be good.. at least better than free.. etc. etc.
Musicians/composers also need an income. At least for some of the downpayments on that new Nord thingie? Smile



I am not insisting on anything.. but I hope you see some of my points here.

Hmm.. I would actually be quite interested in what Norm thinks about this. He might have a different angle and he could quite possible have some interesting thoughts about this.

EGW..back to your post.. I agree.. in theory.. but.. the time that we could post stuff carelessly on web pages and in forums might be over. And.. that might be a good thing.. depends.. dunno.. Please argue.
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egw



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, you make some very good points.
I guess my perspective is different from most.
I don't think of music as a product to be packaged and sold, but as an activity to be shared between people. As it was for thousands of years before it became commercialized.

We don't need the RIAA - they are working purely on behalf of the mainstream recording industry, not artists.

As for broadening the market for the kind of music we make, I don't have any illusions about being able to do that. I just want to connect with other people who have the same interest. Maybe there are lots of people out there who would be interested if they knew about it - I'm all in favor of trying to reach them.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EGW.. I value your perspective.

And the RIAA does not exactly work on our behalf. True,.. but indirectly they do. And the major labels must change.. and I guess the RIAA will change too. That is why they need us and people who will change the business. The main point about the internet is distribution of info and communication. The trend is that there is now a growing global market for anything and the logistics is the main problem. Many businesses have managed to solve the global logistics.. it is mainly about getting the right product out to the right market. The major labels still work oldfashioned.. they spend a huge lot of money on telling the market what it needs .. then sending the goods that way.. wherever.. and go "huh... piracy!" when the market does not agree. My guess is that there is a small but supportive market for a wide range of diverse music.

Broadening a market for a special breed of product is mainly about storytelling.. which of course is a part of marketing. A story.. a vision.. is important to have in order to communcate. This is of course hugely different from sharing with fellow musicians. This site can be a vehicle.. in a small way... to start telling interesting stories about the product we deliver. Just a thought. And that does not exclude hanging out with the boys and have good clean oldfashioned fun.

OK.. I am editing the post in order to get this bit in.. : Even within a ( more or less defined genre ) an artist and his product might become a standalone entity.. not directly connected to the genre. This means that the artist is selling.. or building a nice reputation.. but his audience does not go for the genre as a whole. So.. quite evidently this is probably the fact when it comes to JMJ, Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk etc. I guess you can come up with a few names yourself. I am not saying that it is important to become big.. far from it.. I am trying to suggest a storytelling on behalf of the "genre". Big labels could have used the names I mentioned before in order to break other artists.. or even "creating" a larger genre which could have had promise in the marketplace. But do they do that? No! And.. then.. we see that some of these artists are slowly fading.. opportunities lost.

Hmm.. back top the start.. of my previous post...: a possibly correct conclusion might be that the needs a listening audience has.. are different from what a musician buddy community has. And.. when buddy business is performed in public.. copyright problems show up.

Argue differently? Please?
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egw



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

First, I think our genre, if it is one, suffers from a lack of identity.
There is no name that is generally used or accepted.
"Electronic Music" says more about the instruments used to play it than about the style of music. Also it has largely been co-opted by the dance music crowd. "Space Music" and "Ambient" have connotations that are rather too narrow. Except that ambient is sometimes used to refer to everything that is not dance music!
That's part of why the market is small and disjointed. But also I think that music that is exploratory or experimental in nature will never have a wide audience. And the audience that it does have is mostly other artists.

Copyright issues, I don't think it has much to do with whether a work is intended for a limited community or a broad one, whether it is performed or shared privately or publicly. Copyright issues only come up when someone takes a work that is not theirs and claims it as their own, or tries to sell it for a profit.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 17, 2003 9:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

EGW! Well said. True. Interesting views. Yes.. lack of identity. I can buy that one. I have to ponder on this for a moment or ten. What you say about identity does have certain very interesting implications. You might have hit the nail with a railroadcar.

Ambient.. yes.. the way that term has been used is .. by now .. meaningless.. partly senseless. It says nothing about the music.


When it comes to copyright I see your points but when it comes this issue/ these issues I guess the state of copyright management is the way it is.. and I guess we just have to conform to it within reason. Things can change though.
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