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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Thomas Henry designs
Thomas Henry Keyboard & sMs Integrated Keyboard Controller
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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Bill, Dan,

Just did a stock check of the xilinx part you're using, at Xilinx, AvNet, NuHorizons, and Digikey. The prototype board I think you're using(with the chip carrier to Thru-Hole) is 50USD?, but Xilinx says they only have 8 in stock. NuHorizons have 8 of the bare chip for 31.40USD each. Avnet has plenty (3k+) of the PLCC bare parts at 34.45 ea or 25.19/100. Digikey has about a hundred of either the QFP at around 34USD or the PLCC at 25USD or so.

Thought I'd mention it as sometimes these CPLD's can get hard to get ahold of for awhile. 4weeks lead is given at a few of the above sites.

Do you plan to use sockets or go with a pre-soldered SMD? I'm assuming you'll be offering a kit of these parts? Will the CPLD come pre-programmed, or will we burn it ourselves in-circuit?

Nice to hear of your MIDI plans. Having done some FPGA/CPLD work myself; I kinda thought you might go that way instead of a separate PIC Wink You should have a LOT of real estate left in that 95108-10!

Randal
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tomcat



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another nice project here Smile

Would take 1 at least. When also midi even better.

And yes, if they will be some pcbs offered would be nice when the xilinx + socket are included.
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
But if you want a NEW keyboard to go with your NEW TH keyboard controller; it might make sense. We can get any from the economy all the way up to the fully weighted, piano action types. I would be willing to put together wooden casework kits to enclose them if there is enough interest. (These are the RAW keyboards, NOT the studioLogic complete versions.)


Well, this controller is something we are sharing within our community. The keyboard they choose to mate with the controller is entirely up to the user so weather they use a new or old keyboard is irrelevant. It's really not the NEW TH keyboard controller, it's what I have been calling the "Integrated TH Keyboard Controller". I just thought it would be neat, and a challenge to myself, to take this original Thomas Henry circuit and sort of shoehorn it into a one programmable logic device. Being an embedded systems guy, I like to do that sort of stuff. I don't want to complicate the controller by swaying anyone into buying a NEW raw keyboard. I am not saying your intentions are bad so don't get that idea Very Happy I just want to keep it simple.

As part of the sharing if this design, and since some of the DIY folks here are just now getting into, or, maybe have not been introduced to doing programmable logic design, it's sort of an incentive to get people to say, wow this is cool, I would like to try my hand at this. So, I plan to show folks where to get free design tools, cheap down load cables, and how to program their own CPLD chip as an extension of this thread. Very Happy I believe this would be a great source of satisfaction for folks to build and flash the chip and see it work for them when they connect it to a raw keyboard Very Happy

Bill
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The following IC can also be used for this project and Digikey has 248 of them as of this writing:

XC95108-15PC84I

It's a 15NS part and will do just fine also. The chip and carrier I used included a downloader cable for the low price of $34.00 on Ebay !! NICE

The Digikey PN 122-1246-ND, $16.70 in one piece quantity ... Not to shabby!

So if anyone is interested in this part, this is a good place to get it Very Happy Very Happy

Bill
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is the best way in the world to drag me kicking and screaming into the world of the CPLD. Very Happy

My secret fear is I'll discover the Klee could have fit in a wristwatch Laughing

I've got a dual manual organ keyboard that would make a Fatar blush. Cost me all of five bucks.

BTW, sorry if you've mentioned it - diode matrix or not on this version?

Cheers,
Scott

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

State Machine wrote:
Well, this controller is something we are sharing within our community. The keyboard they choose to mate with the controller is entirely up to the user so weather they use a new or old keyboard is irrelevant. It's really not the NEW TH keyboard controller, it's what I have been calling the "Integrated TH Keyboard Controller".


Bill,

The TH integrated keyboard controller will be "new" to the people who get it? That's what I meant.
And since I am ALREADY buying more than 1000 keyboards from FATAR for a product outside of this forum; I figured I would give back to the EM community by offering to broker their purchase of a new keyboard, for free.(It will actually end up costing me to do so, But that's okay.)
People have said again and again that buying from FATAR was hard or impossible; so I thought I'd try to help. Especially when this wholesale price for a new keyboard is close to the price one would pay for a used one. And it's plug and play with a known quality and usability. And new. Which is certainly a real issue with some older carbon button switch style keyboards. (refer to Antman's recent post in the DIY FATAR thread for an example.)

Quote:
I just thought it would be neat, and a challenge to myself, to take this original Thomas Henry circuit and sort of shoehorn it into a one programmable logic device. Being an embedded systems guy, I like to do that sort of stuff.


I understand. I'm an embedded systems guy too! Smile

Quote:
I don't want to complicate the controller by swaying anyone into buying a NEW raw keyboard. I just want to keep it simple.


You're right. I'm not swaying anybody. I am buying a LOT of keyboards regardless of whether anyone here takes me up on the offer to get a FATAR keyBd for a wholesale price at the same time.

As for simple; I've read more than a few threads here and eleswhere in SDIY about folks finding that converting an old used keyboard was a real hassle. Depending upon the old keyboard you get; it might be molded into the case of the item you bought, have non-standard matrix encoding (or none!)or be of low quality or any of a hundred things I've read over the years. My goal of simplicity parallels yours. A new keyboard can be a simple and inexpensive solution for those who chose to go that way. (As I originally wrote, "it might make sense.")

Quote:
As part of the sharing if this design, and since some of the DIY folks here are just now getting into, or, maybe have not been introduced to doing programmable logic design, it's sort of an incentive to get people to say, wow this is cool, I would like to try my hand at this. So, I plan to show folks where to get free design tools, cheap down load cables, and how to program their own CPLD chip as an extension of this thread. Very Happy I believe this would be a great source of satisfaction for folks to build and flash the chip and see it work for them when they connect it to a raw keyboard Very Happy Bill


Yes. I agree. As I said before in this thread; CPLD's and FPGA's are VERY nice bits of hardware. I'll add that the Xilinx lineup of free tools and available core IP is among the best. They are easy to use, powerful and incredibly flexible.

Having been in product design for some 30+ years; I also know of more than a few CPLD projects derailed by cost and/or inavailability of the chip or supporting items. Lead times and chip availablility can quickly change in the CPLD marketplace. So, since I (perhaps wrongfully?) perceived that you were fairly new to the arena; I thought I'd mention the current costs and supply chain qtys. A helpfully intended heads-up, nothing more.

Randal
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
My secret fear is I'll discover the Klee could have fit in a wristwatch Laughing

Scott,
Fear not! There's no way you could fit all those EM Klee pots and switches and jacks into a wristwatch! Cool
(But you could fit a Klee circuit into one...) Shocked
Depending upon the design tools you use; programmable logic is kind of like doing a G2 patch and then converting it to a single chip hardware item. it's like having your own semi- foundry. Very Happy

Randal
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Randaleem wrote:

Fear not! There's no way you could fit all those EM Klee pots and switches and jacks into a wristwatch! Cool


Err.. those aren't the words of a product designer are they? Wouldn't a product designer find a way to fit all those pots and switches into a wristwatch? Idea

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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Tom!

Well, I believe a large part of being a good designer is to know when to say when. And if it shouldn't be done; then say so. Don't pretend it can be done.

That's the sales department's Job! Wink Razz

BTW, I think the digital guys in the 80's and early 90's DID find a way to squeeze all those analog modular pots and switches into a "wristwatch" sized screen. Layers and layers of menus and params. We all know how THAT turned out! Laughing

Randal
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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear Folks,

Since I'm working on the prototype with Bill, I figured I throw my 2 cents worth in concerning keyboards.

A new keyboard would probably be preferable to retrofitting an old one. I paid like $10 off ebay for a Casio CA-100 and spent the better part of a Saturday afternoon rewiring the matrix, then the better part of that evenning troubleshooting the connections. I also spend 30 minutes at work with the monster bandsaw, which most of you probably don't have access to, to cut it out of the integrated case. If I could have bought a new 4 octave keyboard for $30 or even maybe $35, I probably would have. Now time being money, you can tell I work cheaply! So I think Randal offering kbd's to the group is fantastic!

The TH design uses no diodes in the keyboard matrix because it is low key priority and monophonic. It may be possible that if you get either a new keyboard, or scrounge out a surplus one like me, that the diode matrix will not allow the circuit to work. It depends if the diodes are blocking the scanning coming in or not. If they're in the proper orientation, you should be good to go. If not, you'll have to wire jumpers over the diodes to short them out. This is not that bad of a job and with a 4 octave kbd would take all of 15-20 minutes while drinking a beer after a pot of coffee (ask me how I know). Fortunately, mostl matrix designs I've seen so far have the diodes exposed to the bottom of the kbd and can be shorted without removing the diode pcb. Very quick and easy.
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Having been in product design for some 30+ years; I also know of more than a few CPLD projects derailed by cost and/or inavailability of the chip or supporting items. Lead times and chip availablility can quickly change in the CPLD marketplace.


I wouldn't worry about it too much, they're plentiful now. I'm in the business, too, Randal, I guess I've never felt the need to mention it a lot. My company's products have migrated from through-hole analog to completely DSP based in the twenty years I've worked here. In my position, I see parts come and go - if you don't manufacture cell phones, HDTV, game cubes, or IPODs, you come to expect that. You'd probably find Bill deals with such issues every day, too (and I'm not basing that on assumption). My company rolls with the punches, as I imagine someone of Bill's experience can do as well if it really, actually came to that in this particular instance.

Besides, If you think CD4XXX CMOS ICs are going to be here forever, well then........ Very Happy

I guess there's always Rochester and their prices. Or maybe China will pick up the fab. TI's selection sure seems to be shrinking.

In the meantime, I think it's great Bill and Dan have created this great, 21st century design to drive those Fatars around the block! Cheers, you two.

Warm regards,
Scott

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Dan Lavin



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott,
Quote:
In the meantime, I think it's great Bill and Dan have created this great, 21st century design to drive those Fatars around the block! Cheers, you two.


Thanks for the kind words and support. And just to repeat, in true Thomas Henry/Scott Stites fashion, there will be plenty of options to customize your controller to meet your playing needs. Bill and I have been bouncing additional ideas off each other to enhance the basic TH controller. These mods are based on our previous experiences, other designs out there, older forgotten designs and just plain new crazy stuff! The midi out option that Bill is working on is my favorite, but there are plenty of others. And with the programmability of the CPLD, there's a good chance others on this forum will be able to add their own features and share with the group! Kind of like Legos for the electro-music crowd!
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

antman49443 wrote:
Kind of like Legos for the electro-music crowd!


"Legos"?!? There's that pluralisation again!! First Dave and now you Dan! Shocked Laughing

It could be quite possible to squeeze in the option (the ability I believe, is already there within the CLPD device, is it not?) to throw away the keyboard altogether and just use IR lasers reflected from the back of the eye's retina to trigger the notes instead? It could possibly save a mint on import duties too? Idea

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, that is exciting, actually. And what a great impetus it is to get into programmable parts - it always helps to have a goal that really interests one. Also Embarassed Embarassed it might just help MIDI-ize my studio, which has been lacking in that regard.

Cheers,
Scott

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
In the meantime, I think it's great Bill and Dan have created this great, 21st century design to drive those Fatars around the block! Cheers, you two.

Warm regards,
Scott


Thanks very much Scott. This project has been fun thus far. Thanks for the kind words !! If I may add, Dan has been a gem to work with on this adventure also! The feedback I have been getting is tremendous.

The project is chugging along, although something called a EM-Klee slows it down every once in a while (BIG GRIN). Scott, had to say it .... Very Happy Very Happy

We are in the midst of specifying an 8 bit A/D converter for the keyboard controller. The chip I will use, suggested by Dan, is the National Semiconductor ADC0804 8-Bit data converter. Not new but very capable for this MIDI velocity converter application. They are also fairly cheap at about 2 bucks or less in 10 piece quantity. Originally designed for microprocessor based designs, this A/D chip can be coaxed into free running conversions without the intervention of any processor to start them. This is achieved by playing tricks with the interrupt and write pins on the chip. Cool

OK, later guys !!!

Bill

Last edited by State Machine on Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
t could be quite possible to squeeze in the option (the ability I believe, is already there within the CLPD device, is it not?) to throw away the keyboard altogether and just use IR lasers reflected from the back of the eye's retina to trigger the notes instead? It could possibly save a mint on import duties too? Idea


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy bye bye Fatars !!!!!!!!!



Bill
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Photon



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

State Machine wrote:
Quote:
t could be quite possible to squeeze in the option (the ability I believe, is already there within the CLPD device, is it not?) to throw away the keyboard altogether and just use IR lasers reflected from the back of the eye's retina to trigger the notes instead? It could possibly save a mint on import duties too? Idea


Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy bye bye Fatars !!!!!!!!!



bye bye eyesight. The reason some lasers can be 'eyesafe' is they are of a wavelength (1.4 µm and longer) which is strongly attenuated in the eye's lens and can't reach the retina. That's at low power. Crank it up and no laser is eyesafe.

This message brought to you by the electro-music Forum Vision Advocacy Caucus, 'helping you to see the future' (TM)

Smile

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OMG! Photon's right...I....I...can't see that last post.................
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Food? Where?

OMG I'm blind!!! Help I can't see!!

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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This message brought to you by the electro-music Forum Vision Advocacy Caucus, 'helping you to see the future' (TM)


OK , with a name like PHOTON, we should have expected this one Very Happy Very Happy

Hey Elektro !! Nice show !!!

Bill
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Who turned out the lights?!? Why I oughta...
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Seems like a bad case of river tossing. Laughing
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Seriously, I think this thread has seen enough diversions. I suggest that the "TH Keyboard team" gets the thread back. Very Happy

I love democracy!

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