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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Thomas Henry designs
Thomas Henry Keyboard & sMs Integrated Keyboard Controller
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott said:

Quote:
Perhaps optionally buffering the parallel DAC data (as on Thomas' original design) might not be a bad idea then for future expansion?


Scott, the IC I am using has plenty of drive and 8 bits of data will already be making it outside the chip to the DAC08 so that data can be used elsewhere. This data can be read in by the MIDI converter in the future to create NOTE data.

One thing that can be done is that a the select switch that creates the 3 octave step can be also strobed by a suitable square wave of 0-5 V in amplitude. These inputs can be clamped so they are not damaged. This always creates some cool FX. This is why I like the Blacet VCO, it has a OCTAVE shift input and I like the effect it has on my music.

Antman said:

Quote:
I think we need to start walking with the basic design before we start running with the options. Hopefully the walking part won't take too long for us. Sounds like Bill is well on his way for Rev 1


Sure, thats right, we can certainly walk before we run. I agree. Yes I just finished the logic an hour ago. I have also found a neat prototype platform that houses a XC95108-10 part in a PLCC socket on a small circuit card with the JTAG, grounds and voltages. I also comes with a downloader cable !!! All for $36.00 plus $8.95 shipping.

I will do the initial flashing of the device and do some quick logic checks on it then hand the proto board off to you Antman, download cable and all. You can keep it. Just make room for expansions on your platform thats all. Maybe if you have a spare keyboard, we can trade up or something.

Antman, do you have the DAC08 and TL054/084/074/064, if not, I will supply those also. I will also be supplying a 10 MHz TTL oscillator. This will be the master oscillator into my device and also for the microcontroller when one is installed.

Bill





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State Machine
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, just purchased this. I should be getting it in a few days!

here is the description below. A bit of broken english but good enough Very Happy Very Happy


This Xilinx CPLD development board has all open connection pin headers. User can config and integrate it to any existed circuit.

On board JTAG port allows user to download compiled CPLD file into chip.

Board comes with XC95108 10us CPLD PLCC84 chip let user have wide range device selection flexibility when developing.
On board Vcc port has two separated Vcc input capability for both Vcc_Int and Vcc_I/O.

The set includes a parallel Xinlinx JTAG download cable. So that will work with Xilinx ISE easily.

User can based on this board to develop all XC9500 serials based CPLD devices. Such as XC9536, XC9572, XC9536XL, XC9572XL, XC95108 and more.
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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bill, sounds like you've really done your homework this week! I finally got my computer in the new rack case, hooked up my new amp and painted the walls and ceiling of my garage...so my work bench is now open for business! You are certainly welcome to any of my keyboards as long as you don't mind a little work. Probably the best one is a 3 octave Pratt-Read and is already matrixed with no diodes. There are 2 main issues: the connections come out on thin flex circuit board material and the rubber grommets that shield the metal frame from the plastic retention sleeves are getting pretty brittle and sticky. For the fcb connections, you can either get connectors from Mouser, Digikey, etc. or they are well tinned and could solder a 24 gauge wire directly to the end. For the grommets (not the right word...they're really rubber sleeves) you can buy replacements for about $36 if memory serves me. Personally, I would use vinyl tubing or shrink tube or something like that and save the dough. I also found a SAD1024 that I would be willing to throw in because I feel bad none of the keyboards are 100% no work/ ready to go.

Anyway, checking thru my chip stash, I did find a couple TL074's and a DAC0800. I also found a DAC0831 but haven't researched it yet, (where did I pick that up?!?) Any chance you'll use a 8 X 7 or 8 X 8 scan matrix? I just dread putting the 4 octave thru the band saw after prototyping! I'm sure there might be a few folks out there that would like a traditional modular 5 octave kbd. Anyway, beggars can't be choosy!
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 3:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

antman49443 wrote:
I just dread putting the 4 octave thru the band saw after prototyping!


Why do that at all? If all 8 bits are going to be available for the DAC, the design is no longer limited to a 3-octave kb, as it was due to the Adder method of octave shifting.
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2007 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Bill, sounds like you've really done your homework this week! I finally got my computer in the new rack case, hooked up my new amp and painted the walls and ceiling of my garage...so my work bench is now open for business!


Great, it sounds like you have also been busy !! Hope your computer is working well and that nifty new amplifier Very Happy Well, I should be getting the prototype adapter with the chip in a week or so. I am also doing last minute stuff on the UD-1 (Universal Drum) voice project so I can release those soon Very Happy

Quote:
You are certainly welcome to any of my keyboards as long as you don't mind a little work. Probably the best one is a 3 octave Pratt-Read and is already matrixed with no diodes.


OK, that 3 octave KB sounds cool. I don't mind the extra work to mod it Cool We can talk about that after our Rev 1 prototype is completed.


Quote:
I also found a SAD1024 that I would be willing to throw in because I feel bad none of the keyboards are 100% no work/ ready to go.


Not to worry !! The KB would be fine. Very Happy

Quote:
Anyway, checking thru my chip stash, I did find a couple TL074's and a DAC0800. I also found a DAC0831 but haven't researched it yet, (where did I pick that up?!?)


OK, so you don't need those. I will then supply a programmed IC, adapter board, down-loader cable and a 10 MHz oscillator. I may place the adapter on a larger prototype board along with the oscillator circuitry. maybe a terminal block and some filter capacitors to bring in power. I will also supply a schematic of what is done. You can build the rest of the original TH circuit around the CPLD. The schematics will make it clear what to do.


Quote:
Any chance you'll use a 8 X 7 or 8 X 8 scan matrix? I just dread putting the 4 octave thru the band saw after prototyping! I'm sure there might be a few folks out there that would like a traditional modular 5 octave kbd. Anyway, beggars can't be choosy!


Actually , that is easy to do. I will bring out enough I/O (16 to be exact) for up to an 8 x 8 matrix of key switches. The signal names would be: COL0-7, ROW0-7. This can be done since I already use a 1-of-8 decoder for column scan and an 8-to-1 MUX for ROW selection. When using a keyboard with the circuit, for example your 4 octave unit, just use the lowest key first (COL0, ROW0) then work your way up. The second key would be (COL1, ROW0) and so on. You can use any amount of keys you like up to 64 Cool The circuit will scan all 64 keys in just under 3.5 milliseconds using the 18.5 KHz SCAN_CLOCK that is derived from the 10 MHz oscillator.

Bill
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2007 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Why do that at all? If all 8 bits are going to be available for the DAC, the design is no longer limited to a 3-octave kb, as it was due to the Adder method of octave shifting


I believe Antman may have been referring to the fact that the current design will scan 40 keys maximum and his keyboards have more than that. Very Happy Yes, you can span 2 octaves with the nudge of a switch but it's nice to have a larger keyboard so you have instant access with no switching. AS I mentioned in my earlier post, it's an easy matter to just add the extra 3 rows for the total of 64 keys to easily cover the 4 octave keyboard.

Bill
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bill:
if you're interested, I do have the schematics for the Oberheim digital 2-voice keyboard. (Did somebody say REV 3?) Couple of drawbacks:
1. Only gate, no trigger out
2. requires diodes on the kbd matrix
3. I don't believe we could add on to the existing design due to the way TH implements kbd scanning
4. Should probably get permission from Gibson or whoever owns Oberheim rights now. Probably not an issue for this old of a design, but it could take time to get someone to actually grant permission.
5. Not sure if there is any advantage to using this over a midi kbd and a PAIA Midi2CV8 set for 2 voice mode. On the other hand, the circuit would be very simple and not much different from what we're currently working on.
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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

antman49443 wrote:
Bill:
if you're interested, I do have the schematics for the Oberheim digital 2-voice keyboard. (Did somebody say REV 3?) Couple of drawbacks:
1. Only gate, no trigger out
2. requires diodes on the kbd matrix
3. I don't believe we could add on to the existing design due to the way TH implements kbd scanning
4. Should probably get permission from Gibson or whoever owns Oberheim rights now. Probably not an issue for this old of a design, but it could take time to get someone to actually grant permission.
5. Not sure if there is any advantage to using this over a midi kbd and a PAIA Midi2CV8 set for 2 voice mode. On the other hand, the circuit would be very simple and not much different from what we're currently working on.


Ahem.
I proposed a clone of the Oberheim 2-voice when I first joined this forum.
http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-14723.html
So far, it exists only as files on my pc and web pages.
http://www.geocities.com/richardc64/2voice/2voice.html

Your point 1: Triggers can be derived from the latch clocks.
Your point 3: Nope. The Henry design resets the count when a key is found down. The Oberheim keeps cycling.

I'd be satisfied with a simpler PLD -- a 22Vwhatever -- incorporating the NORs, NANDs and D-ffs of the Oberheim clone.
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

RichardC64:
Thanks for the link and comments. Certainly there is a precedent to do a 2 voice keyboard. As a matter of fact, the first synth I ever touched was a Moog Sonic Six. There's also the ARP Odyssey and 2600, the Octave Cat and of course, the already mentioned Oberheim 2-Voice. Personally, I'd love to do it because one of my projects is a OB 2-voice clone.
The OB KBD circuit would probably not be a whole lot different from the one Bill is working on. It would currently be up to Bill to program the CPLD, but if he's not up for it, I'm hoping I can learn enough in the process of recreating the TH keyboard that perhaps I could do it. I think eventually we'll get one.
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2007 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I'd be satisfied with a simpler PLD -- a 22Vwhatever -- incorporating the NORs, NANDs and D-ffs of the Oberheim clone.


I would recommend a Atmel ATV750 or a Xilinx XC9572. The 22V10 is very limited and has only 1 clock source and only 10 FF's. The 9572 has 72 FF's and cost the same. The ATV750 has buried registers so that you may create internal state machines and counters that are not required to go to the outside. The 750 is also in a 24 pin skinny DIP. Same size as the 22V10.

Bill
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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, I received the CPLD prototype adapter for the TH keyboard integration project. It also came with a XC95108-10 chip installed and the downloader cable. It is really very nice quality !!

This platform will be mounted to a larger prototype board with enough space for the other keyboard circuits (DAC , OP-AMPS, etc...) and "18F" controller IC for future MIDI expansion.

It will also have a 10 MHz oscillator and Terminal blocks.

Take a peek !!!

Bill


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PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is all very cool. Certainly out of my league, but I really hope something comes of this for it may just nudge me in the direction of digital debauchery Wink
-justin
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 8:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
This is all very cool. Certainly out of my league, but I really hope something comes of this for it may just nudge me in the direction of digital debauchery


Very Happy Very Happy Funny statement the Viva !!! Actually programmable logic is not at all that mysterious as people may think and anyone can get started for very little investment monetarily. Yes, there is a learning curve but you will find it's really fun to work with once you get the hang of things. You can achieve amazing levels of digital logic integration. Also, it makes design changes much easier rather then pulling apart a rats nest of wires on the prototype or doing cuts and adds of your PCB traces! With knowledge of programmable logic, microcontrollers and analog design, it's then a matter of how you will partition your design into a working product! You pick and choose what will be analog, what will be hard logic (programmable logic) and what will be done in firmware ....

Bill
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:35 am    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Excellent stuff! I am wondering how tough it would be to do to a 2 voice, 4-voice, or even 8-voice with CV/Gate/Trig output using one of these uP's. Of course it would require additional D/A outputs for each voice, but that is probably not the biggest hurdle.

Next question, where does one go to learn more about programming these very cool devices?

Keep up the good work! This is a prime example of why these forums are a top notch resource!

Phil
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
So, why do I love this thing so much? (ie- just in case you have forgotten, referring to the TH keyboard- v-un-v)

(A) It's an easy build


....and.....

Quote:
I am wondering how tough it would be to do to a 2 voice, 4-voice, or even 8-voice with CV/Gate/Trig output using one of these uP's. Of course it would require additional D/A outputs for each voice, but that is probably not the biggest hurdle.


Shocked

Laughing

Guys, is this not getting waaaaay of topic?? Shouldn't this poly-controller thingie be in the DIY section? Wink

I want the TH keyboard controller back! Wink Laughing

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State Machine
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Excellent stuff! I am wondering how tough it would be to do to a 2 voice, 4-voice, or even 8-voice with CV/Gate/Trig output using one of these uP's. Of course it would require additional D/A outputs for each voice, but that is probably not the biggest hurdle.


Yes, anything could be possible. Right now the original idea is to take the Thomas Henry design and integrate it. If it comes out well, we can always add to it in the future, for example, the MIDI add on. Very Happy If there are other keyboard controllers that are spawned from such a project as this, it shall appear in the DIY forum as it will no longer be a TH design.

Quote:
Next question, where does one go to learn more about programming these very cool devices?


Since Tom (V - un - V) is right and this is getting a bit OT, I will post a new topic and reference some good, practical, reading material for learning about programmable logic. That will appear in the DIY section of this forum.

Quote:
Keep up the good work! This is a prime example of why these forums are a top notch resource!


Your so very correct !! So glad you find it useful! I know I do Very Happy

So just to emphasize, if there are new circuit ideas fellas, they should appear in the DIY forum please. If they are TH designs or variations thereof, then they stay here in this forum. Thanks so much guys .... Very Happy
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State Machine
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2007 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Next question, where does one go to learn more about programming these very cool devices?


see this post ........

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-18414.html

Very Happy
Bill
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK all, I have just completed version 1.0 of the integrated version of the "Thomas Henry" Keyboard. I call it the "Integrated Thomas Henry" Keyboard Very Happy Very Happy. Wow, original!

All of the present digital functions are all in the CPLD chip. Antman and myself will both have identical prototypes to do our further work in tandem.

I have also been thinking about adding the MIDI functionality right on the same chip and create a hardware USART for MIDI NOTE ON, NOTE OFF and VELOCITY messages. I know I had talked about using a separate MCU for MIDI but it would be a waste of logic real estate in the main CPLD. Right now, it functions as Toms does except that it scans 64 keys! The TRIGGER is now 3 milliseconds. It scans all 64 keys in 3.45 milliseconds.

I will share this design project as soon as we are done with it and add the features that we want.

Here is a picture of the prototype unit (minus the analog passives)... there will be two as I mentioned.

Bill


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fellow electro-music Folks,

State Machine and I agreed that this is a good time for an update on the project. The Rev 1.0 version design end is in sight, so if I were you, I'd start to keep an eye out for a cheap keyboard. I'd suggest not paying anymore than about US$10 (plus shipping) if you buy something off ebay/craigslist.

Bill sent me the prototype board per the last post and I've verified all functions operational per TH's original specs. All that's left is to wire up the analog portion and verify that. We finished the first draft of the schematic today. It's real darn simple: 5 IC's if you count the 7805 regulator and the 10MHz Xtal Oscillator, 3 if you don't! Bill's got all of Tom's original logic tied up into 1 chip (well, it is a big honking 84 pin one, though!)

Here's the best part: we've got a number of mods that can be used to customize it to your taste. I told State Machine that this keyboard is going to have the largest left hand panel of any keyboard I have (and I have 8!).

Bill and I have also found a fairly easy way to take the keyboard data and output midi. You'll have note-on's , note-off's corresponding to the keyboard with a few velocity options as well: you won't be stuck with just one velocity AND you can select the midi out channel. This is really exciting as there are no mono midi keyboards out in the market and as we all know, there are certain playing advantages not possible with a polyphonic kbd.

I'd post pics but my daughter made off with the camera for band camp this week, (she's a percussionist and specializes in mallet percussion), so I'll do my best to post pics sometime after Friday.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2007 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is fantastic. Scouring the interweb for keyboards now. And such high-tech trickery too! Can't wait.
-justin
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dear electro-music Folks,

Here's the latest photo of the TH keyboard circuit prototype. All components are now placed on the board. I've drawn a square around the analog portion. Also, get a load of the documentation folder State Machine sent along with the proto-board! THAT'S a lot of work!!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Here's the latest photo of the TH keyboard circuit prototype. All components are now placed on the board. I've drawn a square around the analog portion. Also, get a load of the documentation folder State Machine sent along with the proto-board! THAT'S a lot of work!!


Looks like great progress here !!! The logic integration seems to have gone well. Oh, sorry about the "Docu-tome". I have always been compulsive about documentation. Very Happy

Bill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:

I want the TH keyboard controller back! Wink Laughing

so would there still be an interest in a discrete analogue pcb layout following the original schematic?
i am planning to build an keyboard synth for live performance using the wildcat pcb and i wanted to use the MFOS keyboard controller that still sleeps in a drawer but maybe i should think twice?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
so would there still be an interest in a discrete analogue pcb layout following the original schematic?
i am planning to build an keyboard synth for live performance using the wildcat pcb and i wanted to use the MFOS keyboard controller that still sleeps in a drawer but maybe i should think twice?


Fonik,

The plan is to publish this "integrated" design for public consumption on our forum. Antman and myself are deciding which version will go public. Also, since I used Thomas Henry's original logic design and then did a re-design and placed it all in one logic device, we really should get the blessing from Thomas about doing a PC board. I saw a post by Thomas that he would like to see this done but one more confirmation would be good. A new thread can be started right on this forum subsection. I shall then start posting some technical details about the unit.

Since you are offering to do the analog function (we did change the operational amplifier used), once we are decided what that will be, you might consider doing the logic also as it is real nifty if I don't say so myself Very Happy Very Happy It's really the addition of an 84-Pin PLCC through hole footprint and a couple of support components. It's not that much more to add and with the extra I/O pins on the CPLD device for expansion, it might be a good idea to put a small prototyping area on a 0.1" GRID space on the board to. This design will scan up to 64 keys also!! You can PM me for more details.

A version beyond the original I want to consider though is the addition of MIDI output for a really complete and compact MIDI/CV keyboard controller design. Right now Antman and I are discussing different ways to input a multi source analog "volume" control signal into the device so that the MIDI data bus may convey that information as Velocity data.

Thanks for your offer Fonik and I am sure among all the VCO's, Filters, LFO's, and other fine DIY projects that have been popping up all over the forum lately, a useful, compact, CV/MIDI keyboard controller circuit design would be a nice addition to the mix !!!

More to come !!
Stay tuned ......

Bill
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Randaleem



Joined: May 17, 2007
Posts: 456
Location: Northern CA, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:07 am    Post subject:
Subject description: FATAR keyboard group buy? See main DIY listing for more info...
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antman49443 wrote:
Fellow electro-music Folks,

...The Rev 1.0 version design end is in sight, so if I were you, I'd start to keep an eye out for a cheap keyboard. I'd suggest not paying anymore than about US$10 (plus shipping) if you buy something off ebay/craigslist.


State machine, Antman,

NICE WORK!

Aren't FPGA's and CPLD's the best thing since sliced bread!
Bill, will it be possible to support more than 64 keys? An 88 key setup with aftertouch?

I'd like to mention that I have contacted FATAR (in Italy) recently to begin importing their raw keyboards for a project I have on tap for rollout at Winter NAMM 08. While these are not $10 (For ex., a 25key synth style economy synth style keyboard is about $20USD plus shipping); a group buy would be possible if enough people were interested.

I'll go ahead and mention this in the DIY section under a separate Topic heading so as not to clog this thread.

EDIT It's here: http://electro-music.com/forum/post-131058.html#131058

But if you want a NEW keyboard to go with your NEW TH keyboard controller; it might make sense. We can get any from the economy all the way up to the fully weighted, piano action types. I would be willing to put together wooden casework kits to enclose them if there is enough interest. (These are the RAW keyboards, NOT the studioLogic complete versions.)

Randal
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