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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Klee sequencer
Electro-Music Klee Sequencer Build and Applications Thread
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Uncle Krunkus
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
Yes, all the switches in BUS3 and if I put one switch in BUS2 or BUS1 it reloads when arrives to that step. Also when the Klee is running , all the switches=BUS3, and I switch to LOAD BUS 1, all the leds turn off, and I have to manual load the pattern again. Seems that there is something that it is not well conected.


This might also be explained by inadvertantly using on-on-on SPDTs instead of on-off-on SPDTs in the gate bus. Can you check that with the switches in the middle (GB2) position the middle leg is not connected to either side? Just a thought. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 04, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Uncle, the switches are all on-off-on, the mistake was more silly Embarassed seems that I have put on the front panel the bus 1 as Bus 3 and viceversa.

Scott, performing your test I noticed that.

So with all the switches to BUS 3 It works correctly but, when I put one switch to BUS 2 it loads apparently the pattern. But not was the bus 2! was the following Step in the Bus 3 which actually was BUS1!!!!
And when I put all the switches to BUS2, it works correctly but If I put one switch to BUS 1 didn't load. But yes to the BUS3.

Well, its late, tomorrow I will check it again. Thank you!
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great - I hope things work out on the re-wire, if not, we'll be here with bells on to help!

Cheerios,
Scott

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey! All looks better! Very Happy I rewired the buses and all is OK.

The problem with the Load switch was solved swapping the momentary toggle switch by one pushbutton switch. Now it works OK.

I revised the behavior of the klee according chapter 9 as well I calibrated it with according chapter 10.

The only thing, that I don't now if is OK, is that in 2X8 mode, if I turn to Random mode, The random only works in the group A. The group B keeps repeating the pattern.

Does it have sense?
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Sound



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also, with a pattern loaded, Clock in receiving a signal, if I enable the clock switch sometimes it starts 4 or 3 steps more away, I mean that it doesn't follow in the next steps it jumps 2,3 or 4 steps more away.
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 06, 2008 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

In 8X2 random mode, Register A will be in random mode, and register B will be in pattern mode, so that's normal.

Never heard of the pattern starting off ahead a few steps when the clock switch is thrown. I wonder if your clock switch has a serious case of the bounces - rapid bounce would certainly do that; it would be so fast it would look like the Klee jumped ahead that many steps. You might make sure that R93 is 1M5, R25 is 100K and R29 is 15K.

R93 is the hysteresis resistor for the clock input comparator; R25 and R29 for the voltage divider that supplies the reference to the comparator.

Curious: does this happen when you are using a pulse input or a smoother type signal (sine, tri) for the clock input?

Cheers,
Scott

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It hapens in any kind of wave. Tomorrow i will open again, will see these resistors.

Man, this machine is absolute amaizing a ja ja!

Do you guys have tried to clock the klee with a CVLFO, and control this LFO with the Voltages Outputs, ja ja j this is crazy!
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Sound



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These resistor are Ok, R39=1M5, R25=100K, R29=15K.

I remember that I over heated -learning soldering- decoupling capacitors, and transistors. I didn't achieve to wet correctly the holes and I was soldering both sides of the PCB.

Is that a possible cause? maybe changing capacitor C1?
scratch
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hmm..I dunno. If you got a spare, heck you might try C1.

Do you have a scope - maybe we could go through and check things out.

One thing you might try is just seeing if you can put a low value cap across R24 - just to see if it might squelch any bounce from the switch. Maybe start with 1000 pF (1n) and work up or down in value. If you've got alligator clips, you could just clip onto one leg R24, attach that to one leg of the cap, and clip a lead from the other leg of the cap to some ground point (or the other leg of R24).

Of course, that's predicated on if it's switch bounce that's causing it, but, hey, couldn't hurt! Very Happy

Take care,
Scott

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
switch bounce


FWIW and OT... was thinking that a pic10f200 micro controller ... or is it a femto controller ... which costs about 50 $cents in low volume, has 6 pins of which 4 are i/o and 2 are supply (2 .. 5.5 V), could probably do two independent button/switch debouncers for you.

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Hmm..I dunno. If you got a spare, heck you might try C1.

Do you have a scope - maybe we could go through and check things out.

One thing you might try is just seeing if you can put a low value cap across R24 - just to see if it might squelch any bounce from the switch. Maybe start with 1000 pF (1n) and work up or down in value. If you've got alligator clips, you could just clip onto one leg R24, attach that to one leg of the cap, and clip a lead from the other leg of the cap to some ground point (or the other leg of R24).

Of course, that's predicated on if it's switch bounce that's causing it, but, hey, couldn't hurt! Very Happy

Take care,
Scott


Yes I have a scope.

Yesterday before read your post I replaced D2, C7 and C1 without positive results.

Today I tested capacitor to one leg R24 to the other R24 leg.
1n, not solve anything.
10n as well 100n the problem is solved. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

scratch why? It is due a bounce from the switch? may I replace the switch? or must I solder the capacitor to the resistor legs? polyester metalized is OK here?

Blue Hell, I don't understand, there is other thing more appropriated than a capacitor for do this job?

Thanks.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very interesting the electronics Very Happy

I replaced the clock enable switch, the new one didn't solve anything.

The capacitors 10n and 100n solve the problem but! the clock IN doesn't respond when the signal IN is in the audio range.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I was afraid a cap there would "cap off" the higher frequencies. But, it tells me that the circuit is detecting bounce on the switch. The fact you changed the switch already and it still happens is somewhat of a bummer. This is the first time I've heard of this happening, so I'll have to think about what would cause this one to be so sensitive.

OK - couple of questions in the meantime: what model of switch are you using, and what are your power rails (+/-15 or +/-12)?

Take care,
Scott

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, yeah - if possible, can you measure the voltage on pin 6 of U1 (LM358, Digital Board) and let me know what you have there?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sound wrote:
Blue Hell, I don't understand, there is other thing more appropriated than a capacitor for do this job?


Sorry for the confusion. It was a general remark, not meant to solve your problem but an idea for doing things another way another time another project ...

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok Blue!

Scott, in the pin 6 of the U1 I measured 1,925V

The rails are +15V/-15V

The switches that I'm using are NKK series M
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the info! Yeah, can't hardly beat NKK switches. I take it this particular switch is a SPST ON-OFF, right?

Voltage is exactly as expected as well.

I'll have to chew my cud on this one for a bit - I've just never experienced this with the clock enable switch.

Do you have a scope?

Also, do you have a DC source you can connect to the clock input jack? I'm wondering, if you put, say +5V in, and flip the enable switch on and off, what you will see. Doesn't have to be 5V - just something a tad over 2V. A DC voltage will enable me to do some comparisons of what I'm seeing on mine as opposed to what you're seeing on yours.

Cheerios,
Scott

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott Stites wrote:
Thanks for the info!

Thanks to you!

Quote:
Yeah, can't hardly beat NKK switches. I take it this particular switch is a SPST ON-OFF, right?

Yes it was a spst on-off, an was replaced for on-on switch. ( Is what I had)

Quote:
Do you have a scope?

Yes, I have.

Quote:
Also, do you have a DC source you can connect to the clock input jack?

Yes . I have the TH 10-step voltage reference Very Happy .

Quote:
I'm wondering, if you put, say +5V in, and flip the enable switch on and off, what you will see. Doesn't have to be 5V - just something a tad over 2V. A DC voltage will enable me to do some comparisons of what I'm seeing on mine as opposed to what you're seeing on yours.

With the capacitor 10n soldered in the legs of R24, and 5V DC in the clock input, each tme that I turn ON the switch, the Klee move one step, so it is like a manual step.
Without capacitor, each time that I turn ON the switch it moves one step or 2 or 3 or 4 or more. In aleatory way.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, without capacitor in the legs of R24 and 5V DC in clock IN, the clock always respond when I turn the switch to ON, going ahead aleatory number of steps, and also, sometimes respond when I turn the switch OFF.

I replaced U3 and its decoupling capacitor C3, without positive results.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quick question (if you're still awake over there): where do you have the ground lug of the clock input jack connected on your panel?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Belay that last question - I don't think there's anything wrong with your Klee - mine will do the same thing!! Never noticed that before, but it makes sense. Sorry to run you through the ringer on that - this is something I've just never looked at or noticed before.
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think if one wants to start at a sycnchronized position, it's going to have to be done externally to the clock (IE, the clock should be turned on and off from the source). This doesn't affect the patttern load enable - internally it will bounce as well, but it's just bouncing the same pattern in, so it doesn't make any difference.

This should be noted in the documentation.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Scott, the jack ground is connected to the digital ground. I revised the front panel strap connection digital ground and all seems OK, visual and with the multimeter.

Also I replaced the switch by other of mountain switch without positive result.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aha! I didnt see your last two posts!
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mine doesn't ever skip when turning off the clock, and it will usually not skip if I just flip it once. It's when I flip it several times that I notice it starting out at usually two steps ahead of where it was right before I flipped the switch. So, I guess that's why I never noticed it - with my setup, it's relatively rare. If I put a 1n cap between the switch lug and ground, it never happens. I'm thinking that would not affect audio rate range, though I haven't tested that. The reason I believe that is that the frequency range is limited by C7, which is the same value.
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