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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Klee sequencer
Dual Purpose Klee
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THeff



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 9:35 pm    Post subject: Dual Purpose Klee
Subject description: Make the Klee Sequencer a standard seq and Klee seq as well.
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Hello all,

This is my first post on Electo-Music but I have been following it for quite a while. I am in the process of building up a Klee and I am toying with the idea of breaking the 16 bit connection between the output of the shift registers and the 16 bit bus and placing a 2 channel 16 bit multiplexer (4- mc14551 ICs) there. This will allow me to switch between Klee function or standard sequence functionality. The 1st position of the multiplexer would connect to the shift registers as usual and the 2nd position of the multiplexer could connect to a typical CD4514 1x16 decoder or PIC microcontroller for normal step sequencing. Any thoughts on this idea?

Tim
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'd thought with just only the first bit active the KLEE would already work as a standard sequencer? so the actual benefit of your method would be the ability to switch both modes with just one switch. could be nice, i think. i wonder if it would be worth the efforts, though.
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fonik



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

oh, tim, i forgot:
nice to have you here.
welcome

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THeff



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for the welcome Matthias!

I believe you right, with only 1 bit set, it would "walk" across the shift registers like a normal seq. I guess I had in mind to drive the 4 inputs of the CD4514 1x16 decoder with a small PIC. I could then easily go back/forth, set number of steps, preset arpeggios, etc. I have built several sequencers in the past (and bought a lot of pots and switches) and thought I could use the Klee as a universal test bed for future ideas, especially since the Klee has the nice octave and semi switching. With the pots, summing amps, and LEDs, always attached to the bus, I could simply plug in a 16 bit ribbon cable to the 2nd position of the multiplexer and give it a test.
BTW Matthias, I have built the PS3100 resonator, Wasp clone, and UD-A Drum, using your PCB designs and they all work great! Thanks for sharing your designs!!!

Tim
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome Tim

That's not a bad idea at all. Actually, I had some grand plans for a Model 3 Klee that would do something along those lines. As it was, I finally concluded the Model 2 (later the electro-music Klee) was just about "there" as far as how much people would want to fill a panel and PCB board. Your approach would be more economical.

As I mentioned, one idea was along the lines of yours, only I'd planned to implement it with CD4019s (of which I've got a buttload at home still unused).

The idea consisted of adding another row of 16 pots. Each row of pots would have a selector switch - Klee pattern or "normal" one bit sequencer. The gate bus would also have this selector switch. With that method, one could switch any row of pots and the Gate Bus to process either the Klee pattern or the normal 1 bit sequencer.

The one bit sequencer would have had a separate clock and reset circuit, normalled to the Klee clock. For a random function using the "normal" sequencer, I'd planned on using certain bits of the Klee pattern to address CD4516 counters, and the counters themselves could be switched to count up or down or load from the Klee pattern with each clock pulse.

There are a zillion directions one can go with sequencers, shift registers and CMOS. The electro-music Klee is just one little corner of a nearly infinite universe of Lunetta devices (when you get a chance, search the term Lunetta on the forum, Howard's got some interesting posts on the subject).

Cheers,
Scott

Edit: Howard = Mosc, or fearless leader. Very Happy

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THeff



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hi Scott,

I have not committed to the mutiplexer idea yet, but I am going to at least run the shift register outputs to a pin header and the bus to another pin header. The header will also include GND, +15V, and Clock so that I can still use the Klee single-step, and clock in from the front panel. I can then just manually connect the Klee or some other sequence driver. After noticing that the common section on all sequencers is the 8-32 pots, gate switches, and step LEDs, and growing a little weary of wiring these, I decided to go with a universal approach this time. I have attached a low res picture of my progress thus far. My forum and typing skills are very marginal so hopefully the attachment works right. I have been lurking in the shadows quietly building stuff and reading the forums and I thought it was time to participate. I owe you thanks as well for encouraging me to build a Dim-C and other things from your great web sights!

Tim


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Last edited by THeff on Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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fonik



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a klee, a klee! i can see a klee - and what a wonderful 3U panel! i like it a lot!

and the ideas that come up in this thread will encourage me to keep a 1U spare in the rack-enclosure for the forthcoming "versatile multi klee controller"

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Shocked Shocked Shocked

Holy cow!!! Fantastic!! You're the only other person I'm aware of that's attempted this! If you run into any issues building it, let me know - I've still got the original on breadboard.

That panel is beautiful.

Awesome.....

Scott

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THeff



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the compliments on the front panel.
I have attached a better picture and an AutoCad .dwg file if anyone wants it. I actually used Turbocad for the design but figured the .dwg would be easier for everyone to view. The breadboard is about 75% complete and I have tested each section as it was finished. The only snag so far was that I was not paying attention and connected -15V to pin 4 of the U1 LM358 opamp instead of GND and it made the CMOS gates on it's ouptuts very unhappy! Once that was corrected the clock and load sections performed as expected. If all goes well I should have basic functionality this weekend.


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Last edited by THeff on Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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THeff



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess the Autocad drawing attachment did not make it, so here it is again. I tried to export the drawing as a jpeg and BMP but they looked terrible. If someone wants a different format like .dxf, let me know.

Tim
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That is really sweet. How did you color it and do the graphics, etc?
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goodrevdoc



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A Klee! Great work Tim!
-jsutin
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sneakthief



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

nice work! the Blacet typeface looks great on that panel
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, big props to you -- that looks fantastic! Mmmm blue!
A very effective panel layout.
Hmm, no Invert B switch?

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mono-poly



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I really like your layout!
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THeff



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks guys! I used ID-Mark for the front panel graphics. It is .007" aluminum, that is photo sensitized for positive artwork and self adhesive. It comes in 12"x20" sheets and in different colors. I have used the black and the blue. I create the artwork with overhead transparencies in a laser printer. The exposure requires UV light and 2' fluorescent lights from Home Depot work well. To develop it after exposure you use water believe it or not. It's a little tricky to figure out at first but I have done over 40 3.5" x 9" modules for my synth using ID-Mark in black.

Here's the link:

http://www.horizonsisg.com/products/idmark.asp

Oh, the cost is $126.00 for 5ea. 12"x20" sheets. I think it works out to be about $4 for a "3.5 x 9" panel. The stock number is 8700 for black and 8705 for blue. They have a PDF price list showing all of the details on their web sight. I can send a picture of the synth showing these panels if anyone wants. BTW does anyone know why I could not attach the .dwg drawing file to my last post?

Tim
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don¨t think we have allowed those extensions. Try zipping it?
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THeff



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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks Electro80, Here are the front panel drawings in a Zip file. Feel free to modify and use them any way that you want.

BTW, here is a synth building tip: Make sure that you have a good synthesizer album playing loudly in the background while building. My favorite is the latest Pink Floyd double CD "Pulse". It's great for motivation and dreaming about the sounds your creation is going to make!

Tim


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nope, no invert B switch, because that came along with the electro-music version and it wasn't really discussed in the Klee thread. Not that it's any big secret or anything, or difficult to implement. I didn't bring it up to Tim, because the panel is already done. I'd hate to go adding stuff to that beautiful panel meself.

If you'd like, Tim I could show you where we planted it (you could probably figure out pretty quickly). It adds two resistors and, of course, the panel switch.

Cheers,
Scott

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THeff



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:19 pm    Post subject: THE KLEE IS ALIVE!!! Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Scott,

The Klee is about 98% functional. The scaling and voltage output sections are not right and I traced it to an error on the schematics. I should have seen this while wiring but I guess the background music was too loud! Anyway pin 12 and 13 on all of the TL074 opamps is incorrect. Pin 13 is the neg input and is shown as 12. This had me scratching my head until I said wait a minute the neg input and output pins are always next to each other. I have not fixed this yet but I know this will resolve most of my issues. I am also getting intermittent key bounce on the load and clock switches. I will probably just have to tweak the time constants in those circuits. Scott your design is awesome!

Tim


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THeff



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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Invert B switch mod. Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Scott, I forgot to mention that I would be interested in the details of the Invert B modification, once I get all the details corrected here.

Kleefully,

Tim
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Woow this looks so nice!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Tim,

Quote:
Anyway pin 12 and 13 on all of the TL074 opamps is incorrect.


Embarassed Sorry about that - that was one thing we had to shake out of the schematics when Andy was doing the PCB. In the original, I had to manipulate the symbols a bit in Express PCB, and screwed up the pin numbers. At the time, I never got back to rev the posted schematics. I'll fix that before they're re-uploaded.


Quote:
I am also getting intermittent key bounce on the load and clock switches. I will probably just have to tweak the time constants in those circuits.


How often does this happen? That's something we'll need to nail down in the protobuild if we encounter it. I don't get any intermittency on the breadboard testing "worst case" switch selection (anything from knocking two wires together to a raspy foothswitch). But between breadboard and actual panel mounted stuff there could be a difference. What type of capacitors did you use there (mylar, ceramic)? I'll be interested to know what values you arrive at.

That's some serious work you've put into that build! Amazing, indeed!

Here are the portions from the EM Klee schematics that cover Invert B function. We just put the unused section of U4 to work. The switch either takes the output of the inverter or bypasses the inverter.

Did you build a Dim C?

Cheers,
Scott


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hey Scott,

Thanks for the inv B info, I'll tackle that later. No apology needed for the schematic errors. For the complexity of this beast I think your documents are excellent! Many commercial documents are not near this detailed and accurate. For as many quad opamps as I have wired over the years I should have caught it much earlier. Anyway, I built a Dim C the tail end of last year and it works great. I strayed a little bit from the original design and used 2 pots for continuous modulation control like the CE-300 instead of the selector switch. I haven't gotten around to creating the front panel overlay yet. Well off to finalize the Klee. I want to make sure it is Klocking, Kloading, Klstepping, and Kloutputting the right stuff!

Thoroughly Kleeized,

Tim


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I want to make sure it is Klocking, Kloading, Klstepping, and Kloutputting the right stuff!


Laughing This is amazing - I never suspected another Klee out there existed beyond my breadboard. In fact, your Model 2 is the only built Klee in existence, that I know of (besides some Model 1's, which aren't nearly as extensive as this version). I am astounded. In fact, I may have to tap you as the "fifth column" during our proto-testing, if you don't mind.

Anyway - I lied. I never did "worst case" testing. The absolute worst case of any switch testing would be those momentary switches from Jameco. Those things are awful - I've got a ton of them, and I've never found them good for much of anything.

So, I pulled one out of the cobwebs and strapped it to the Klee board. You can imagine the hair standing up on the back of my neck as this thing hopped and skipped around. Sometimes I'd press it repeatedly and nothing would happen. Sometimes it would step just fine, then stop, then double trigger. I was pretty waylaid by the experience. Then, I started thinking - why wouldn't it trigger if I pressed it repeatedly? There was no electrical reason why, circuit-wise. So, I clipped on the DMM leads and watched it. What a crap switch - sometimes, no matter how I pressed it, it would not close - and sometimes it stuck closed! Shocked

So, I grabbed one of the switches I purchased for the Klee panel. These are Mountain switches I got from Mouser. Not overly expensive - $2.50 apiece or something like that. I got largish ones. I soldered a couple of leads to it, put in the breadboard, and it operated absolutely perfectly. I could punch it as fast as I wanted or as slow as I wanted, and it never missed a beat or stuttered. So, lame as it may sound, don't rule out the switches. I know debouncing is supposed to accomodate a particular switch, but I don't think there's anything that would accomodate these Jameco pieces of #$%@. I've used a footswitch and another toggle switch I have around here before with no problems. Normally I just bat the exposed end of a ground wire to the wire tied to the pull up resistor - that even works pretty well. I have small decent momentary switches around here somewhere that I ought to dig up and try.

Nice Dim C! Ain't those things the deal? Germaniac and I have a running joke about how a snow (or leaf blower, in the case of California-based Germaniac) can sound good processed through one.

Take care,
Scott

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