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SN Voice - 2 possible mistakes...
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:34 pm    Post subject:  SN Voice - 2 possible mistakes... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello all!

In an impulsive action I purchased an SN Voice PCB about 3 weeks ago... and have a few questions:

1- It's power supply must be +18/-18 and +5 volts DC... I searched for a schematic for this circuit and finally discovered one on the preview of Thomas Henry's book "An Analog synthesizer for the 21st Century" on a link in Magic Smoke's website to Lulu.com who sells the book. Is there a PCB for this circuit or do you have to breadboard it? The link on the TH Design Downloads Thread is broken (as many links in the Forum, but I'm told that's due to a major crash that happened a couple of months ago...)
Now, the SN Voice schematic includes a 78L05 5V Linear Regulator... doesn't this make the 7805 Voltage regulator on the book redundant?

2- I have started to buy the components to populate the board and let me tell you it's a pain in the butt... but all of you already know that and justify it by saying that that's one of the thrills of SDIY. I don't think so. Very few of the projects discussed on electro-music.com are available in kit form... and the expense incurred in by buying from the vendors is greatly increased by shipping costs (apart from the time it takes to obtain the components).
That's the first mistake (it's not on the board... it's MY mistake).

3- I read the forums and almost all of you guys are Gurus regarding this hobby saying "connect THIS with THAT and modulate it through THIS and the filter it with WHATEVER and you'll obtain the sound of Osama Bin Laden farting". This knowledge is evidently the result of extensive experience and trials and error. However, this is chinese for a newbie.

Question: Where does a newbie begin? Maybe there should be a Sub-Forum called "Getting Started" explaining the basics of this art.

Thanks!

TRO

PS: You might wonder what the second mistake is according to the title of this post... if I wasn't able to correctly build the WSG as you can see in my "WSG Thank You!" post (a beginner's project), what the hell was I thinking of when I bought the SN Voice PCB?
In consequence, I might even sell the SN Voice PCB to any of you once I receive all the components I have ordered so far.
As Dirty Harry once said, "A man must know his limitations".

Thanks again!

TRO

Last edited by Tronato on Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:45 pm; edited 7 times in total
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EdisonRex
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I thought the SN-Voice ran quite happily on +-15, and optionally +5, or you can just pop in the 7805. There's no 18V requirement I can think of.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

You're right, that's why the Analog Synthesizer for the 21st Century's power supply uses 7815 and 7915 voltage regulators... that's not the point... the point is if there's a PCB for it available or does it HAVE to be breadboarded...

Thanks!

TRO

Last edited by Tronato on Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's no PCB for the 21st Century Synth. However one has been mentioned before.

As for kits, that is an interesting question too. Apparently (and I can understand why), preparing a kit is a logistical nightmare. It's very much a full time job also.

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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello again...

The parts list indicates under Miscellaneous "Printed Circuit Board", but lets forget the Analog Synthesizer for the 21st Century... how about any other suitable Power Supply?

Thanks!

TRO
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andrewF



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: SN Voice - 2 possible mistakes... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi
you can run synths on a variety of voltages, I mostly use +/-12V, many people use +/-15V. The 5V regulator on the sn-voice pcb is there as a convenience for people who don't have a 5V supply.

Its worth the effort and money to have a good power supply.
Ken Stone sells a good pcb -
http://www.cgs.synth.net/modules/cgs66_psu.html
and if you are ordering that it may be worth checking some of his other circuits (no, I don't work for Ken Smile )

As for asking newbie questions, or a newbie forum - don't worry, use the search function, there is a good chance your question has already been asked, if not, ask away.

I think you won't be disappointed with the sn-voice once you hear it.
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RF



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Tronato,
Re: your point #2 - ordering the parts. It gets easier with each project as your personal parts stock grows. It's seldom that I order quantity 1 of any part - unless it's extremely rare/expensive or esoteric. If I order resistors I order 200, IC's at least 10. Same with Jacks, knobs and pots and most any component.
They are much cheaper in quantity, I'm pretty sure I'll use them eventually and shipping doesn't add up so bad.

Also - I'm a scrounger. I've got lots of tantalum, ceramic, metal film,and electrolytic caps, plenty of trim pots of many flavors, switches, regulators, transformers and fuse assemblies from old equipment I come across.

A real benefit of a well stocked personal parts bin is that I can find a schematic and throw it together without having to deal with ordering and waiting. I have not had to place a parts order for a couple months and have continued to build.

Good luck!

Bruce
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

Thanks for the indication AndrewF. Looks good!

RF: 25 or 30 years ago, when I first approached this hobby (building the Paia Gnome, the Vocoder, the surf and the wind synthesizer, the Chord EGG, their first sequencer and a Popular Electronics project called PSYCH-TONE) I also built up a great amount of components. I even recall having a blue protoboard that included a 5 volt power supply which I used so much some of the holes wore out!.
All that stuff still exists (I hope my mother didn't throw it all away) but the problem is it is all in Venezuela and I'm now in Miami.
I even remember fooling around with the SN76477 at the time and a function generator (XR2007) or something like that.
I also recall that most of those projects worked the first time and were used by me in a rock group my cousin had called (don't laugh) Blue Onon Band. Lucky man by Emerson Lake and Palmer was a recent hit and when we played I made all sorts of improvised noises with all this stuff (I was the effects guy AND sound man so the effects were always louder than they should but I wanted to be heard and hear myself since we didn't have stage monitors then- JA JA!).
In any case in those times printed circuit boards were made of ugly, brown, copper bakelite (smelly too), and BIG, with lots of wasted space. BUT they were easy to troubleshoot. You even had to use a normal pink eraser on them to clean the oxide from them before soldering. Today's PCB's seem like a Bentley in which you want to fit in 22 elephants! Why? In the end its the front panels which make a project housing big...
I'm getting carried away, sorry...
Bottom line is you shouldn't have to order two 49 cent IC's and pay $7,00 for handling and shipping... absolutely absurd!

Thanks!

TRO
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hello-

if you live in Miami, there are bound to be lots of places around to buy electronic components locally. you shouldn't have to get everything through mail order.. also, Ebay is a good place to look to stock up on parts.

As for power supplies- there are lots of kits out there for pretty cheap.

josh
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
but the problem is it is all in Venezuela and I'm now in Miami. Bottom line is you shouldn't have to order two 49 cent IC's and pay $7,00 for handling and shipping... absolutely absurd!


Hi Tronato!

You're in luck! One of the best surplus electronics Houses in the country is just a bit North of you in Lake Park (just above West Palm Beach).

It is called Marlin P Jones and Associates, and their website is at www.mpja.com

BTW what will the gas alone cost you to drive these few short miles to get parts in person? Imagine if you were to charge for your time to do so as well. $7.00 to ship anything across country reflects the true rising costs of transportation. A 40miles round trip driven in a car that gets 20MPG, with gas at $3.25+/Gal is nearly the 7.00 mark!

As for Kits? If you feel it is troublesome to get parts for one board, you can imagine how it is to get parts for many. It takes a LOT of time, money and effort. And the sad fact is, many still do not appreciate the work involved. Just ordering the parts is not enough.

I've seen posts here asking why kits are so expensive, when the parts they contain don't cost that much. Others have asked why the kit price of someone like MOTM or Blacet is so close to the assembled price. (Inferring that the kit *should* cost a great deal less.)

It seems some people want it both ways. They want the kit to cost the same as the parts alone delivered directly to them, and they want those "two parts" you mention above to STILL cost 98 cents. Where's the money for the time of sorting, counting and confirming the parts? Ordering, storing, bagging, etc. How about the bags and shipping materials themselves? Not to mention the writing and confirmation of assembly documents and support for those who have problems in assembly. Making kits is a LOT of work. Ask anyone here who has shipped PCB's only and you'll hear them say that it was a LOT more work than they thought it would be. And that's just shipping one part number!

John Simonton of PAIA wrote often of the realities of being in the kit business in his Polyphony magazine and is also prominently referred to in Don Lancaster's Incredible Secret Money Machine book. Interviews I have read have him relating that the keys to PAIA's success were three: 1)Common parts shared amongst circuits, with as few variations from this as possible. 2)A Vertical business model with in-house facilities for sheet metal, painting, screenprint, woodwork and PCB manufacturing. 3) Great tech support.

As for the cost of a kit being nearly what an assembled module costs? Of course it does! What is left out of the kit cost, compared to a finished module? Assembly. Tuning. ALL the other work has already been done. A professional can assemble and tune a module in an hour or two at most, and this is about what you see in the cost difference of those who offer both kits and assembled modules.

And most of the people offering PCB's are NOT in the business of doing so. Most do NOT have the items John S mentioned as making it more likely to succeed. They are simply people who love synths, and want to help others along in that same love.

Kind regards, Randal
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Randaleem



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 3:12 am    Post subject: Re: SN Voice - 2 possible mistakes... Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
This knowledge is evidently the result of extensive experience and trials and error. However, this is chinese for a newbie.

Question: Where does a newbie begin?


Hi Tronato,

I Forgot to answer this part of your question. A newbie begins the same way the gurus you mention did... By doing. Boat builder Sam Rabl said "Experience starts when you begin".

So buy or build a synth and begin using it. Accept that it WILL be "Chinese" for a awhile. And then realise how lucky we are to be alive in the world right now!

Because we have available to us nearly all the prior experiences in written form via this internet. One very good resource for a newbie is the ARP 2600 User Manual. you can find it online. Another is Rich Gold's Serge book.

The EML and MANY other Vintage synth manuals are similarly available for the download. Since you mentioned having built several PAIA kits, you must be aware of Polyphony magazine? Articles there covered many basics. And the PAIA modular manuals covered synth basics too. Craig Anderton's DEVICE magazine is online.

Cynthia Webster has posted about a dozen of the old Synapse synth magazine at her website.

Sound On Sound magazine ran a multi issue series (more than 30 articles!) on Synth Basics that is available online at their website. This is a VERY extensive look at nearly all the elements of getting sounds from your circuits.

Keyboard magazine back issues contain synth columns written by the likes of Rick Wakeman, Bob Moog, and others standing tall in the field.

And the list goes on and on. Between having the gems and warts of the past available, the collective experiences of those gathered here and other places online, and the building and/or actual USE of the circuits you have, there is a WEALTH of resources available to a newbie!

And the tools we have to learn with! We can put entire modular synths on our computers, and while we may not find the resulting sound to match our hardware expectations, we can certainly experiment in ways that would bankrupt many of us if done another way. The G2 demo is one such application that is oft-mentioned and well understood in this forum.
VST's may not live up to any particular persons expectations, but again they allow one to inexpensively learn and then to apply what is learned in making hardware choices with "real" circuits or instruments.

There are video's of vintage synths, performances, and usage explanations for both vintage and modern gear on YouTube. A daily reading of the blog at matrixsynth can add greatly to one's general knowledge of synths and expose resources you might miss otherwise.

We have lost many of the giants of the "golden age" of analog synths recently, and sadly, others will follow. But many with a great deal of experience are still with us! How fortunate are we to be able to contact these people directly and ask questions via email! To read their words of experience and wisdom online!

Where does a newbie begin? THAT'S easy.

How to take in ALL that is available TO a newbie seems MUCH more difficult.

Some have said that we are NOW in the golden age of synthesis, and I'd have to agree.

Kind regards, Randal
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

Thank you Randaleem for your extensive and comprehensive answer!
Let me tell you that your mentioning of Cyndustries (I didn't know about it) brought tears to my eyes when I saw the section on SYNAPSE Magazine... Why?
In 1977 I was living and studying in Italy and I heard about Synapse, subscribed and wrote to them and they actually published my letter!

You can see it in the July/August 1977 issue (Volume 2, Number 2) on page 4 and the title is Super Synapse. I signed it as Freddy Bello, Pomezia, Italy...

http://www.cyndustries.com/synapse/synapse.cfm?pc=51&folder=july1977&pic=5

You made my day!

Thank you so very much for having given me this absolutely unexpected pleasure!!!

TRO
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

Where in the universe is FUTURLEC located?

TRO
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The moon. Their customer service department is located on the Mars.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
Hello!

Where in the universe is FUTURLEC located?

TRO

i believe they are actually located in bankok/thailand. the online shop is handled in australia, though...

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23isgood



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2007 11:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes thats true. When they charge your card, it shows up as Australia. When they ship its from Thailand. I actually got an order recently that only took a little over a week! Thats incredible for Futurlec.
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject:
Subject description: Resistor question...
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Hello!

How much would the performance of the SNVoice improve (or any other project posted here in electro-music.com) if only 1% tolelrance resistors were used?

Thanks!

TRO
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RF



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Tro,
Well - The price would go up - but I don't think you would see many changes in performance. Most circuits just use whatever standard value resistor is close.
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Tim Servo



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:32 am    Post subject: SN Voice - 2 possible mistakes...
Subject description: Resistor question...
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Tronato wrote:
Hello!

How much would the performance of the SNVoice improve (or any other project posted here in electro-music.com) if only 1% tolelrance resistors were used?

Thanks!

TRO


Actually, 1% resistors are cheap enough that I use nothing but those. 1% metal film resistors generally have lower thermal noise and lower temp drift than carbon film units. The most noticeable difference will be in the audio path. You'll probably see more of a difference in a VCF or VCA than you would a VCO. Also, modular synth signal levels are pretty high, so the thermal noise isn't as much of an issue. You'll see a much bigger improvement in something like a mixer or other equipment that handles instrument or line-level signals.

So the short answer is, you may hear a slight difference in the audio, but it would be very subtle at best. More likely, you'll get better performance in things like the CV mixer and other bits like that in the SN-Voice with 1% metal film resistors.


Tim (at 5' 5", a bit of a short answer myself) Servo
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!

I have found that this design has a few uncommon resistors:
2K
11K
75K and
110K

Will rounding them up affect the performance of the SNVoice, like:
1.8K or 2.2K instead of 2K,
10K or 12K instead of 11K,
68K or 82K instead of 75K
100K or 120K instead of 110K

Thanks!

TRON
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you're stuck trying to get those weird resistors, you can make some.

for instance a 110k resistor is a 100k + a 10k in series. Likewise the 75k can be made with a pair of 150k in parallel. Think about it. It might be ugly looking, but it doesn't have to be.

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Thomas Henry



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:

I have found that this design has a few uncommon resistors:
2K
11K
75K and
110K


Well, actually, these are just ordinary 5% values and available everywhere. There's nothing special about them.

Thomas Henry
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Tronato



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello!
Since Thomas Henry says they are common I'll look for them a little deeper.
However a thought came into my mind... we all know what happens to the resistance value either when you put them in series or in parallel... but... what happens to tolerance when you series it or parallel it?
I'm just curious...
Thanks!

TRON

Last edited by Tronato on Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tronato wrote:
what happens to tolerance when you series it or parallel it?
I'm just curious...


Good question!

I'll give a hint, you could do a worst case scenario by looking at the lowest and the highest possible values for the given tolerance. That will give you four possible combinations to work out for both the parallel and the serial case ... it's a bit tedious ...

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Thomas Henry



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:

I'll give a hint, you could do a worst case scenario by looking at the lowest and the highest possible values for the given tolerance. That will give you four possible combinations to work out for both the parallel and the serial case ... it's a bit tedious ...


Or you could treat the individual tolerances as delta-x and delta-y and then examine the total differential as an approximation. This is actually a standard problem in most calculus textbooks. I still remember thinking when I first saw it as an undergrad "is the calculus really needed here?" For the case of series resistors, linearity comes to our aid and so the calculus is overkill, which is what bugged me at the time. By the way, I still remember my professor smiling when I asked that---he obviously understood that it was easier to just calculate the exact difference by hand rather than invoking a differential as an approximation. But it makes a great example.

Like Blue Hell says, this is an interesting question. It occurs to me that an instructive experiment in a freshman electronics course would be to wire two pots in series and then in parallel, restrict the rotations to 5% at their middles to simulate standard 5% variation and take various measurements. Then follow this up by developing the mathematics to explain the total variation exhibited.

Thomas Henry
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