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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Musical Interfaces
Building a better music keyboard
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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
Posts: 97
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:56 pm    Post subject: Building a better music keyboard
Subject description: Interested in building a faster to play, faster to learn instrument?
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An innovative keyboard called a jammer (a.k.a piano 2.0, Thummer [tm]) has many potential advantages over the traditional piano.

I've built a couple and have found the jammer keyboard is far better than the traditional, due to far better ergnomics (all the keys of the major scale are under the fingers). It is at least twice as fast to learn. Better yet due to a consistent layout, it's significantly faster to learn and easier to play without a fumble.

In practical terms, it takes 10 years to become skilled enough to be passable pianist. With the jammer design, the same level should be reachable in 3 yrs. (if you have had some (e.g. 3-5 years of lessons you'll only take 12 months.)

Added bonus: the keyboard layout meshes tightly with human perception (that's all music theory really is). Playing it the music makes sense and you can see the patterns.

So this is a call to people who want to actually build (as opposed to just posting). In http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/ is a bit of information. Needed are builders, testers, players, helpful critics, and more brains than I alone have.


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A jammer built from a $300 M-Audio 88es.
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seraph
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
A jammer built from a $300 M-Audio 88es.

wait...where all the rest of the 88 keys went Question
why you need an 88 keys keyboard to assemble the tiny thing Question
don't tell me you have 88 notes in that small case Shocked

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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
Posts: 97
Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are actually 130 keys mounted on the original 88 keys.

This layout would work very well for a Janko keyboard too.
See: http://musicscienceguy.vox.com/library/post/how-to-build-a-jammer.html
MSG
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Zodiak



Joined: May 20, 2007
Posts: 249
Location: Gillingham, Kent UK

PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thats really strange... I love it.

Is it touch sensitive?

I am a VERY bad keyboard player so anything like this really appeals, the only downside I can see is that when I am singing to an audience I like to hold my head up and can feel my way round the keyboard using the black notes as a reference point, which you wouldn't get with this I guess Crying or Very sad
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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zodiak wrote:
Is it touch sensitive?

The underlying keys are standard M-Audio 88es, so they have the same touch, although the fingering is a bit stiffer, since I had to shorten the keys. If I make plastic replacements, as I'm seriously considering, the touch will be the same or a bit lighter.

Zodiak wrote:
I like to hold my head up and can feel my way round the keyboard using the black notes as a reference point, which you wouldn't get with this I guess Crying or Very sad

Since the keys are always in the same place, fingering is easier. I've marked some keys with little dots so I can come back to the same key.

Since the keys are colored, and I don't use transposition except for a single sharp or flat when it makes reading the music easier, I'm finding the notes get a bit of a "color" to my ear and it's making staying in the same key easier too.

Does that help? Obviously it's time to do some video clips - but they take time to set up.
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Luka



Joined: Jun 29, 2007
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i am interested in this
once i get some backlog out of the way
ill build one for sure

either this or a stribe

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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Luka wrote:
i am interested in this
once i get some backlog out of the way
ill build one for sure

either this or a stribe

The stribe looks cool, really cool, but how expressive is it?
Ken.
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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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Location: Vancouver, Canada

PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Creating a kit to convert a standard keyboard to generic
Subject description: I will be likely putting together a kit to convert M-audio ES88s to a generic 4-row keyboard.
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Hi good people,
If Jim P. does not get funding for his Thummer in a month (by May 1st), then I'm definitely going to have generic keyboard modification key caps made. You can then build your own generic keyboard, and program it to either be janko (chromatone) style, jammer (thummer a.k.a. Wicki/Hayden) or a C-Thru unit, albeit it will only have 4 active key-rows and 2 duplicate key-rows.

You can make the unit look like the one posted at the top of this thread, but will probably be about 2 cm longer than the black keys I was forced to trim the white keys off level with, to give better action and feel, so the unit will be 4 cm wider, but about 2cm lower in height. The changes will be reversible (just put the old keys back on), so that you can restore your M-Audio. I've also got provisional agreement from m-audio for them to sell us their warranty returns.
The keys will allow us to create flexible generic keyboards of 4 rows (with 2 optional dummy rows) high by n rows wide - up to 88 (using 2 m-audio es88s) , 66, 69 or 49 etc, and you can put on the key-cap of your choice.

Price? I'm guessing that creating the molds and creating a couple of dozen kits will be within my budget and what I'm willing to gamble away. I'll sell them to cover costs - would $200 be too much? or would $100 be better?

One thing for you to do - I'd dearly like to have a reduced-size keyboard (ideally a Usb-powered controller like the m-audios) to work with - see my jammer improvement notes. If you could find one, it would be great.
Also dearly hoped for is switches that could be used to sense velocity, that is, they would trigger twice when depressing.

Sincerely,
Ken @ MusicScienceGuy.vox.com

BTW color is turning out to be very useful - I see a note on the score and the position gives it a color, and the color gives me my fingering).
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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Announcment!
I am now starting to design the keys for the DYI keyboard conversion kit.

If successful you will be able to convert a M-Audio 88es/66es or 49es into a jammer, Thummer, Janko or C-thru Axis keyboard
Wish me luck.

3D modelers and plastics experts wanted! - my non-existent skills need a boost. Confused
I'm logging the progress in my MusicScienceGuy blog.

Ken, MusicScienceGuy
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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicScienceGuy wrote:

Wish me luck.


I wish you luck Exclamation Very Happy

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Inventor
Stream Operator


Joined: Oct 13, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue May 13, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi MusicScienceGuy, I think your work is interesting, but I don't really understand it - maybe I should read your site some more though. I'm confused, are you taking a $300 music keyboard and popping the keycaps off, then replacing those keycaps with something different? If that is the case, what was wrong with the original keyboard and why are you doing it? Maybe I'm just confused.

I looked into getting a plastic object made. The companies I contacted wouldn't even talk to me twice until I had a CAD drawing, which would cost over $3,000 for a professional to make. Then, they said that they have to build a mold and the mold is another few thousand. When they go to make the item, there is a setup charge for each run of parts which is cost prohibitive at like $500 or so, plus a per piece charge which is small but adds up. They will only run the mold for 8 hours or so at a time, so you can only spread the setup charge over so many pieces. Then there is shipping and storage unless you pick them up yourself and fill up your home with boxes of plastic parts.

So my conclusion was that if I had $7k to $10k then I could make my parts - and that would be only one color of the parts, not multicolor like you show on your keyboard. For me at least, it wasn't a good option. I've worked in companies that did make small runs of things like card end-covers but they had the ten grand to shell out, easy and they had a high enough profit margin to cover the cost.

I don't want to discourage you as perhaps you can get someone to do the CAD for free and you can make a disposable mold that is cheaper, so maybe you could do it for just a few $k, but I'd really think it through and ask if it's what you want to do. Could you for example buy a bunch of switches for each keyboard? You've already invested $300 for the keyboard you'd like to modify and then the keys will be another few hundred... for that you could buy a bunch of sexy switches and put them on a custom circuit board perhaps.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just tossing in my perspective and I wish you the best of luck whatever you decide to do! Happy hobbying!

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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Inventor wrote:
... are you taking a $300 music keyboard and popping the keycaps off, then replacing those keycaps with something different?

Essentially yes, if by keycaps you mean replacing the white and black keys with a uniform set of key bases (in black), to be capped by replaceable key caps.
See: jammer-making
Quote:
If that is the case, what was wrong with the original keyboard and why are you doing it?

There's plenty wrong with the standard keyboard. I got started on this when I wanted to play music in the original key and could not stomach learning 12 different (and some quite difficult fingerings). This lead me to the consistent Janko keyboard (commercially the Chromatone) and hence to the ergonomic (=faster) jammer (commercially the Thummer) keyboard.
See a better keyboard? and easier-to-play

I've slowly realized that this makes for a very flexible design, a "Generic Keyboard" that should have wide appeal, since it can be configured many different ways.
Quote:
I looked into getting a plastic object made.

So did I. I'm lucky to live in a very prosperous, highly connected city (one can find a specialist in anything here!). I also have a wide network of talented friends. They make me look smart. Especially see Kevin Knox of Diversions
Quote:
Then there is shipping and storage unless you pick them up yourself and fill up your home with boxes of plastic parts.

Yes to the above, that's why I have to charge $200 for a kit. I have to make enough to give my saintly wife a treat in return for the loss of my time and having the house turned upside down. If I make more, our charities get the surplus, and I give the business to a needy entrepreneur.
Quote:
So my conclusion was that if I had $7k to $10k then I could make my parts - and that would be only one color of the parts, not multicolor like you show on your keyboard.

Not quite that much. I hope to do it for $4k. Through clever design (the clever part is supplied by my friends), it will be multicolor. It has to be.
Quote:
why not make switches for each keyboard? You've already invested $300 for the keyboard you'd like to modify and then the keys will be another few hundred... for that you could buy a bunch of sexy switches and put them on a custom circuit board perhaps.

Musical keyboards need to sense velocity too, else one has only a harpsichord. There's nothing on the market that will do. Musical keyboards have special double switches built into the printed circuit board. The stock keyboard I'm using is a solid unit that can work with any PC in the world.

So don't just wish me luck - tell all your friends about this keyboard.
Bottom line: we enthusiasts want to sell enough to convince keyboard makers that there is a market.

Ken, @ MusicScienceGuy.vox.com
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Stream Operator


Joined: Oct 13, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

OK, well perhaps you are onto something big! There certainly is plenty of interest in that other keyboard thread I've seen you post to (haven't read it though). Thanks for not getting defensive about my critique of your project, as I did not intend to be negative!!! Hope everything works out great, which I'm sure it will!
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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No problems about the questions - love honest interest and the questions were good ones.

I thought there would be piles of interest on this site - who with an interest in music doesn't yearn to play an instrument that's 3 times easier to learn than a piano and can do nifitier things?

However the electro-music crowd has not shown much interest; I assume either they have not wandered into this particular thread, or are more interested in creating sounds.

If there are other discussions that I can notify, please let me know, or better yet, let them know. I need to sell about 20 kits @$200 for brake-even, and I've had commitments for about 10 thus far.

ken.
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jjj



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PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You know your Janko/ Wicki keyboards looks truly nice. The only thing I wish for is that the keys are roundish (convex) shaped, because on a zebra keyboard one is able to slide over the keys to create jazzy tunes. Otherwise this is impossible with sharp edged key tops, without hurting or injuring the fingers.
For that reason accordion buttons are slightly convex-shaped and rounded on its edges.
Here you can see a close-up of the buttons and how smoothly they are handled or "fingered"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Pz0LlqG6J4

And here you see how wildly he slides along the keyboard:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKDlwo5NSvg
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polyneux74



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've seen these machines online as micro-tonal keyboards/ controllers. Micro-tonal advancements were first built into large console type organs in the 1950's as an experimental device to explore micro-tonal music. There are some clips that can be found on line of some of those early day sounds. If I find them again I'll post them up here to listen to (at least a link or something). The great thing is, is that it makes creating music much more intuitive as all the Majors, Minors, Diminished, etc... are in a particular line corresponding to a relevant key and notes. This is really a beautiful design and I've never seen one that someone has made from scratch! Excellent!
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicScienceGuy wrote:
I thought there would be piles of interest on this site - who with an interest in music doesn't yearn to play an instrument that's 3 times easier to learn than a piano and can do nifitier things?

Speaking just for myself, this is almost impossible to understand. If you want interest you need to explain it clearly and simply -- without reference to somethin else I haven't heard of either.

Sorry, not meant as a flame, just an answer to your question.

Very Happy

Ian
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MusicScienceGuy



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:08 pm    Post subject:   Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

frijitz wrote:
Speaking just for myself, this is almost impossible to understand. ... Ian

Of course. I've tried to explain it in my blog, here

And in particular, here.

Here's a snippet (for more see here):
Can we do better? Can we take advantage of the fact that some notes are physically adjacent? Normally on a piano you’d seldom play adjacent (Black and white) notes.

Lets look at the important notes in the scale. In all scales there’s a special note, the Root, it’s odd twin the Octave. They have special partners the 5th and the 4th, also know as the dominant and sub-dominant.

Practically every musically useful chord pairs a root or the octave with the 4th or 5th. With a linear layout, the useful notes are spread out and you have to bop around a lot: great, big hand motions are needed, and the piano keys are big and heavy because the thumb also has to be able to play them.
And ... you can’t wear a piano, or even carry it to your next gig.
...
If we slide the notes in the second row over a bit, the 4th and the 5th can be put right above the root. ...



As you can see on my latest blog posting, I'm now having fun with my Axis-49 and netbook combo - a very portable, 2.5 pound, multi-purpose keyboard. Is it 3 times faster to learn? I think so - ask me in 3 months.

ken. Cool
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frijitz



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicScienceGuy wrote:
Of course. I've tried to explain it in my blog, here
And in particular, here.

Thanks! I hope I can find time to go through that soon. I'm very much interested in alternate controllers and have done a "bit" in that arena myself. (Not keyboards, though.)

Very Happy

Ian
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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,
As mentioned above, I'm using the "harmonic table" keyboard made by C-Thru Music called the Axis 49, tricked out to play as a Wicki-Haden (Thummer) keyboard. It works with both my pc and macs as a midi keyboard.

If you're interested in alternative keyboard controllers or music notation in general I recommend checking it out, as it teaches music theory like nothing else, and in the hands of someone skilled (unlike myself) is fast to learn and play. It is velocity sensitive, albeit with a touch more like a guitar than a piano. It needs a computer to work; a netbook works very well, as I show here, making a 2-kilo portable synth that's smaller than a shoebox.

They just added a forum post with the price marked down to affordable: 250 US bucks. The post says the sale is only happening on August 2nd and requires purchase via a paypal account. I'm not sure what they are up to, but there is a chance that this will be as they say, truly a "one-time only" offer.

See here for the gory details.

(Note to seraph) Why Do I care enough to post this & ask your indulgence? Two reasons:
1) Altruistic: I don't want them fail to fail, like Thumtronics: this is one of the most unique and cool keyboards that's been built since the piano came on-scene, and ... it isn't vaporware. I'd much rather they do well and inspire competition.

2) My selfish reason: I'd really like to have more buddies with an Axis so I can trade ideas.

Cheers!
Ken Rushton, @ MusicScienceGuy.vox.com :uGeek. B)
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seraph
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicScienceGuy wrote:

(Note to seraph)


I don't recall why you direct that note to me but that's fine Exclamation I agree with you Very Happy

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MusicScienceGuy



Joined: Jun 22, 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MusicScienceGuy wrote:
I don't recall why you direct that note to me but that's fine Exclamation I agree with you Very Happy

You are the moderator, and I'm trying to sell another company's product on this board, albeit for good reasons.
I assumed I should ask your "indulgence".
Thank you,
Ken.
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magman



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks to MusicScienceGuy,

I've just picked up one of the Axis 49 keyboards using the special offer he gave details of (at least they've accepted my order and taken payment from PayPal).

At half normal price, this is worth trying.

I'll have to wait for delivery now then I can start playing. I'm also part way though building a new music PC, so this should fit in very well.

Regards

Magman
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