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Do you believe noise is music?
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Is 'noise' music?
Yes, of course.
80%
 80%  [ 8 ]
Noise? Music? Preposterous!
20%
 20%  [ 2 ]
Total Votes : 10

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I am totally with you, Greg. Well put.
I guess a part of this discussion touches upon those weird and disharmonic sounds some of us can find useful and even beatiful. This means that the term "noise" in itself might be misleading. Discussed in this thread is also structure itself and this is a big field. However.. a discussion of structure in music is always interesting.

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This CD box is extremely interesting and I guess the liner notes can be an interesting read.. complementing this discussion quite well.

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egw
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
I guess a part of this discussion touches upon those weird and disharmonic sounds some of us can find useful and even beatiful. This means that the term "noise" in itself might be misleading.


Yes, what sounds like noise to one person is beautiful to someone else. I don't think it's all that useful to define noise as "something that is not music". I prefer a working definition of noise as a particular type of sound. Basically, it's anything that doesn't have a recognizable pitch. As I've said before, any sound can be musical. It depends only on how it is used. If you've ever synthesized a flute sound, you know that the "breath" component is actually noise. All acoustic instruments produce noise, most electronic ones do too. A cymbal is mostly noise.

Now, it happens that most of us here on this forum enjoy noise quite a bit more than the average musician or listener! A broad-minded attitude towards music is one thing that attracts people here. A love of unusual sounds is often what first gets people interested in electronic music.
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Abaddon



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:
Who decides what is music, the listener or the creator?

Why not both? I am basically saying what makes music repetitive or the bad side of predictable is zero randomness. Randomness is needed to make the song interesting. But when randomness messes up the whole song structure, I cease to call it music. Then I just call it annoying. Confused

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well.. a completely static piece of "music" can be uncool.. but not always. The modern sequencer is of course a device that can render good ideas pretty lacking in the emotional department. But this is not really a problem caused by the device itself. What you call random.. can this not be added just by adding a performance rather than a rigid looped pattern?
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

egw wrote:

I use randomness in my music all the time. It's quite a leap of faith to say that random equates to meaningless. Furthermore "predictable" doesn't guarantee that there is anything musical going on. Is the sound of a train music? It's repetitive and predictable. What about a babbling brook? How about the output of a sample & hold circuit on a synthesizer? If the sound is created and/or shaped by a human as part of a musical process, then it is clearly music. It may sound random or unpredictable, but really it isn't because there is human intent behind it.
There is plenty of music that is intentionally unpredictable. Improvisation often involves an element of randomness. I have argued that creativity is fundamentally the process of applying structure to randomness.


the frontier between randomness and human control is always the most interesting, and always destined to go through paradigm shifts, because of the nature of our explorations. Mozart's melodies seemed really wild and random until people heard them a LOT. 4'33" is purely structured randomness, with very specific goals and humor. A white noise machine can be harnessed to many purposes, and the randomness inherent becomes a compositional tool. Controlling "random events" is now a quite established part of the musical lexicon, and we're getting to the point that machines will compose, and maybe even compose algorithms with which to compose pieces!

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play



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 12:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

I cease to call it music. Then I just call it annoying.


That's fine. As long as you don't pretend to others that your experience is an objective truth. That, I call annoying.

one of my favorite pieces of what I consider to be music took place in the backyard of my old house. It was pretty much a continous thing for a few weeks. The squirrels were fighting with the birds for control of the only tree in the backyard. I think the proper word is cacophony but it was also so intricate and delicate and then at really intense moments of verbal abuse all the little pieces would overlap and create this single rich texture. I think it was the only time I've experienced live granular synthesis.

ayone who has taken the time to really listen to birds or insects, as you would listen at a concert may know that human intention is not what defines music. peraps it's just Intention, with a capital 'I'
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i think it's the creators intention..what the idea behind the noise/music is..that is transmitted to the listener

a mental state/idea is an effective modulator..of everything


'under the sound', is the idea..

and it is the idea itself that pleases or doesn't

maybe depending on the state-of-mind of the listener too

i think it is why, when a piece appears to be ugly, the idea behind the music is beautiful, and thus the listener hears this 'ugliness' as beautiful

or it might also be the reason why such simple words or musical phrases can mean so much to so many people...while some music appear shallow or over-simplified, the idea behind it is vast [like some Beatles music]

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Abaddon



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All nice and valid points. I often times find myself in awe over the intricacy of nature's wonderful sound layers, and using my imagination to determine how far I can hear. It truly belittles us, this wonderful world of ours. Shocked
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 15, 2004 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Abaddon wrote:
I often times find myself in awe over the intricacy of nature's wonderful sound layers, and using my imagination to determine how far I can hear.


me too Very Happy

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Johan Zwart



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PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes I believe.

BlackNoiseMusic

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Norm Vogel



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:29 pm    Post subject: Noise / Music Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Noise AND music are merely "sound". Music is "organised noise".

Whether it's "noise" or "music" depends on the person's "internal programming" / perception.

Just my humble opinion.

Nomr

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Agreed
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