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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » G2 Patches - Completed » Synth
ARP 2004
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modular



Joined: Jul 26, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 3:52 pm    Post subject: ARP 2004 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Another analogue patch. Name is only a sort of inspiration, but nothing to compare with the ARP 2600.

Morphing and control parameters to knobs available.


ARP 2004.pch2
 Description:
Analogue patch with some fat lead trance-like and overall delay

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 Filename:  ARP 2004.pch2
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:24 pm    Post subject: Re: ARP 2004 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

modular wrote:
nothing to compare with the ARP 2600.


Ha, I used to have one of those things. I don't miss it for a minute.

I like your patch, though. It uses a 24 dB/octave classic filter - the ARP 2600 didn't have that you know; just a thin 12 dB state variable filter. Your patch has lots of other stuff the Arp didn't have as well, but like you say, "nothing to compare." Smile
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modular



Joined: Jul 26, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I like your patch, though.


Thanks Howard.

You're always ready to encourage us and tell us kindly words. Very Happy

cheers[/quote]
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the ARP 2600 was pretty cute, but in my opinion it has been overhyped. It was decent but not great.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yep, over-hyped. I never really owned one. A friend bought one, got bored with it and loaned it to me for a few years. Then someone came over who really lusted after it, so with the permission of the first friend, we loaned it to him. My favorite "portable" synth of those days was the Synthi. Another friend bought two of them and let me play with one. That was not boring.
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice one modular, great variations.

mosc wrote:
My favorite "portable" synth of those days was the Synthi


Is the Synthi's patch panel as good an idea as it looks?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 31, 2004 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:

Is the Synthi's patch panel as good an idea as it looks?

Well, I think it had it's positives and negatives. It wasn't like patching a Moog or Buchla modular where you could see what you were connecting with the patch cords. You had to know the Synthi pretty well to patch it, and you had to remember what was connected to what because looking at the pin panel wasn't intuitive. The pins did make pretty good contacts. The best thing was that you could patch it up, take the machine somewhere, and it would still be patched the same. Also, there were no cords in front of the knobs, so playing it was clean. When I think about it, I guess the pin panel was in inhibition to creative patching. Synthi players almost never seemed to be patching when we got together for a jam. Everything was already patched.

The great thing about these machines was that the oscillators had neato mechanical ten-turn pots. These were really fun to play with. You could play very nice smooth music.

The Synthi wasn't anything unique, but sometimes you like a synth for some intangible reason. I guess it's a personal thing.

IMHO, the closest thing to a Synthi today is an ION. What a wacky thought, but like the Synthi's ten-turn pots I just love the ION's high resolution encoders. They are just soooo smooooth - they are just so nice to play. Both the Synthi and ION have musicial instrument knobs.

The G2 has much more powerful architecture than the ION, but it's 128 step low-resolution knobs are crude in comparison.
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Tim Kleinert



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Never owned a real ARP, but the virtual Odyssey incarnation in my friends studio gets alot of use from me. It just sounds so different. I love it. But maybe that's just because of the digital emulation doesn't emulate "need for maintenance" too. I heard the real ones are very rickety nowadays, and restoring them (Arptronics) is effective but very costly.

I also am bugged by the 128-step resolution on all the contemporary gear -G2 included. It's all just done out of compliance with the archaic MIDI protocol, and its just not musical.

The Alesis ION, Andromeda and the MiniMoog Voyager are examples of workarounds -They use 14bit knob resolution (16384 steps) via paired controllers or NRPN messages, which is great but can clog up the MIDI stream when overdoing it.

As long as the great corps (Yamaha, Roland etc.) are not willing to form a consortium instead of trying to impose THEIR standard on everybody else (mLAN, anyone?), we will see 128-step knobs for a long time.

oh well Rolling Eyes
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 3:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The 2600 and the Odyssey were two completely different instruments. The Oddity ( http://www.gmediamusic.com/gforce/oddity/index.html ) is excellent. It sounds very much like the original and at times far better. I had some Odysseys but I never really liked them because of the mediocre build quality and the need for servicing all the time. Apart from that, the Odyssey deisgn is a classic. It is very playable.
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Fozzie



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Very cool patch. I might rip some of it in a bass pitch tracking patch. Thumbs up!!!
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cebec



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the Ion has 12 bit controller resolution. Would it be possible to 'upgrade' the G2 for this in a firmware/editor update? or are we 'stuck' with 128 steps...?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My guess is the encoders would need to be changed, probably requireing new cricuit boards, but I don't know. I bet we have to wait for the G3. Sad
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Oskar



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
My guess is the encoders would need to be changed, probably requireing new cricuit boards, but I don't know. I bet we have to wait for the G3. Sad


Do the Clavia folks subscribe - if that's the right word - to this forum? If not, will they get told about this idea? I'm not a keyboard player as such, but even I have noticed the inadequacies iof 128 steps. I think this is a BRILLIANT solution, but as some of you already have said, what really needs to happen is for the big corps to agree on a new protocol. When even a know-nothing like me can see the need, it must be blindingly obvious....
Nice work, lads! cheers

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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm pretty sure the folks at Clavia check the forum and the NM mailing list.

Actually, even though I'm a big advocate of higher resolution knobs, in most cases the 128 step knobs work quite well, or at least well enough. If the stepping becomes objectionable, you can always do something in the patch to get around the problem, unless you are sweeping oscillators over the entire range. Even then, you can patch in a smoother and it sounds a bit better.
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Rob



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I'm pretty sure the folks at Clavia check the forum and the NM mailing list.

Actually, even though I'm a big advocate of higher resolution knobs, in most cases the 128 step knobs work quite well, or at least well enough. If the stepping becomes objectionable, you can always do something in the patch to get around the problem, unless you are sweeping oscillators over the entire range. Even then, you can patch in a smoother and it sounds a bit better.


The encoders could theoretically work with any resolution, they could be programmed like e.g. ten turn pots.

According to Clavia the choice for 128 steps is simply to comply with MIDI, which is still the standard they have to deal with.
The 128 steps also allow the turning of the encoders to be roughly in sync with the leds around them. Changing this would need changes on a very deep level in the software, so it is not likely to happen.

However, when using a morph the morph range is subdivided into 128 steps, so using a small morph range can give an additional fine resolution. Its a bit a compromise between the need for MIDI compliance and the need for fine control. You can get fine control through a morph, though over a smaller range as the full range for a parameter and have this fine control compatible with MIDI's 128 steps.
Of course this doesn't work on switches. And some other obvious cases, like it doesn't work on the Coarse tuning when an Osc is in Partial tuning mode. Because harmonics simply are always set in whole numbers. But if a parameter is analogue it works quite nice.

So, for those parameters that you want real fine control you can assign an encoder to the normal parameter and additionally set a small morph range on the parameter and assign the morph to another encoder for the fine control.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good point about the morphs. Even if you don't want to use a morph for some reason, you can attenuate and shift to get the same result.

You are right about the encoders being setable to any increment. I don't understnd the correleation to the LEDs though. There are 128 steps now and 15 LEDs, so you have to move about 128/15 = 8.5 steps to get to the next led. If there was a software change and the resolution could be increased to say, 512, then there would be 512/15 = 36 steps per LED. Reprogramming a counter wouldn't be all that difficult. I would vote for this change. Smile

Still have a knob to sweep an osc over ten octaves is a very useful musical control on a synth.
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
I don't understnd the correleation to the LEDs though. There are 128 steps now and 15 LEDs, so you have to move about 128/15 = 8.5 steps to get to the next led. If there was a software change and the resolution could be increased to say, 512, then there would be 512/15 = 36 steps per LED. Reprogramming a counter wouldn't be all that difficult. I would vote for this change. :)


When Rob was speaking about a deep level I assumed him to mean that the 128 steps are present at deep levels in the code that runs on the DSPs. To change just the mapping for the LEDs wouldn't be very complicated indeed, but there is more to it than just that.

Also there is a drawback when the resolution is enhanced, like Rob said the knobs could be made to behave like a ten turn pot, but to sweep over the entire range would then requiere ten full turns, which probably you wouldn't want to have to do all the time.

Jan.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Maybe 1 way to really make this useful is to use the buttons as well. Not all knobs are useful beyond 128 steps...and as it turns out, many of them that are useful don't employ use of the button simultaneously. So, the button could be used to select between fine (10 turn) & coarse (1 turn) movement. I know the button doesn't apply to all cases, but it's certainly worth while.

Clavia isn't entirely tied to a 7-bit number...MIDI defines many CC#'s to become a 14-bit pair if desired (much like Bank/Program select are seperate, but also used together). Support for NPRN's is also possible...

And the knob code may be almost trivial, especially if the "fine" mode wasn't 10 turn, but more binary, like 4 turn or 8 turn. Then a simple shift instruction could be used to translate bewteen coarse & fine. Divides are ugly and take far too long in instruction time unless necessary.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 13, 2004 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oooooh.. I like that. Push the button and downshif into low gear!!! Great...

Perfect.
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