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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
ReaktorG2
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bantri



Joined: May 15, 2005
Posts: 149
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sigh...

I wish i had the Motorola 56xxx dsp code to evaluate if it´s possible to make a translation to reaktor code...

Does somebody here has the 56xxx dsp code, at least for the noise generator module? (so i can make a translation experiment)

(Reaktor obviously has a white noise generator but, as an experiment, i think it would be interesting to evaluate a translation from the original white noise module)

Is there any Clavia employee reading this topic?

Does anyone here has access to the G2 ROM source code?
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 12:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bantri wrote:
... Is there any Clavia employee reading this topic? ...
I'm sure there is, only at the moment they are all on holiday, somewhere on this planet. My advice would be to wait until they return and write a mail to 'feedback' at http://www.nordkeyboards.com/main.asp?tm=Support&clsm=Feedback. They surely will give an answer. Another advice would be to write seriously about what you want and add at the right places some humor... And last, but certainly not least: although the G2, G2X and Engine aren't produced anymore, it's surely by no means a dead platform. As long as there are dreams and plans in Stockholm the basic idea can return on the market in another form... Surprised

Wout
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Unfed



Joined: May 11, 2004
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2009 3:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this seems pretty cool and i certainly applaud your efforts, but i'm not sure i see the point of it. (especially if it won't be possible to patch the modules directly as you can with the G2?) hell, i'd be happy with a set of Reaktor macros that offer the same functionality and can be patched together with the ease (and in the same manner) of the G2 modules. patching with Reaktor seemed a bit too much of a hassle compared to the G2 with all the extra work that you need to do, so i pretty much gave up on it. (one thing that comes to mind is simply how the oscillators and envelopes work - the ENV runs to the OSC, as opposed to the OSC signal running *through* the ENV. one thing i like about the G2 is how the OSCs are 'free-running', which is very useful for noodles, etc... though i guess you could just hook a constant to the ENV input on the OSC?) of course, i'm not very skilled at patching the G2 (maybe due to lack of effort?) in the first place and didn't spend too much time with Reaktor before i stopped bothering with it. if possible, i'd be totally happy with a macro collection that worked like the G2 modules. also, i actually prefer the customization possibilities of the Reaktor panel GUI, and can't see much point in restricting yourself to the look/feel of the G2 layout.

maybe i'm missing something?

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veta



Joined: Feb 19, 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfed wrote:
this seems pretty cool and i certainly applaud your efforts, but i'm not sure i see the point of it.


i have to agree with this. you are putting an immense amount of effort into this, yet in the end you are still at the mercy of Native Instruments. if they change something at the core level, or don't implement some of things you are requesting, all of your careful work will be for naught.

in my opinion, you would be better off putting all that considerable time & effort into attempting to reverse-engineer the g2 spec so that we could program some new modules for it!
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

veta wrote:
Unfed wrote:
this seems pretty cool and i certainly applaud your efforts, but i'm not sure i see the point of it.


i have to agree with this. you are putting an immense amount of effort into this, yet in the end you are still at the mercy of Native Instruments. ...
But at the other hand the TS also will learn a great deal by doing it, isn't he? There is always a result, even as it would be a nice contact with Clavia. No effort what so ever is a lost effort! Smile

Wout
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bantri



Joined: May 15, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
My advice would be to wait until they return and write a mail to 'feedback' at ...


I tried that channel once... Maybe i´ll try twice.
(The mail that comes from (feedback@clavia.se) does not allow replies...)

But thanks for the advice.

Honestly, i prefer direct employee email addresses, when comunicating with companies.

Here´s mine:
pvb256@hotmail.com
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bantri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav(electro-music)=xavinet(NI)?
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bantri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfed wrote:
This seems pretty cool and i certainly applaud your efforts, but i'm not sure i see the point of it.

Thanks.
It´s good "learning exercise" maybe?

Unfed wrote:
(especially if it won't be possible to patch the modules directly as you can with the G2?)


Sorry. Decision taken.

bantri wrote:
Patch Cables in the front panel layer are a responsibility of NI.


If possible go on the link i supplied, and use your persuasion, while Reaktor R6 is not released yet.

Unfed wrote:
I'd be happy with a set of Reaktor macros that offer the same functionality and can be patched together with the ease (and in the same manner) of the G2 modules.


I´d be much more happier, with a better version of the G2 app, with some special extra features included... like "opening the hood" of each module and seeing what´s inside, as Reaktor does...
(Not including the millions of ideas I am brainstorming right now, that I ever wanted (in years) to put on G2 and now, being able to implement them myself)
-Multichannel wiring transmitter/receiver module
-Signal distribution module
-Wire organizing module
-32 steps sequencer module
-Oscilloscope module
-Sampler module
-Button grid module
and the list goes on...


Unfed wrote:
One thing i like about the G2 is how the OSCs are 'free-running', which is very useful for noodles, etc...


FYI Reaktor has free-running oscs and better, it has anti-aliased oscs.

Unfed wrote:
I actually prefer the customization possibilities of the Reaktor panel GUI, and can't see much point in restricting yourself to the look/feel of the G2 layout.


I just love the G2 interface...
It´s a good source for inspiration.
It´s so more productive and so more friendly to beginners...
It´s so faster to implement circuits from scratch...
It´s so more objective to see the modules and wires in a single screen...
I guess, i was a telephone operator in some other incarnation, i like to manage panels with dozens of plugs panels and cables.
(Especially in the virtual case, because i can instantly duplicate a module without going to the shopping to buy one (or extra wires and plugs maybe?), and also to reposition the modules and wires to make the circuit better visually.)
(I also like to remove those modules and hack the inner modules, but that´s another story)

Unfed wrote:
Maybe i'm missing something?


Enough said?
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bantri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

veta wrote:
I have to agree with this. you are putting an immense amount of effort into this...


It has it´s compensations...


veta wrote:
yet in the end you are still at the mercy of Native Instruments.


Better mercy than yours maybe? Because right now, i haven´t seen a single character written from you, in the NI forum link i suggested for persuading the inclusion of patch cables.

veta wrote:
If they change something at the core level, or don't implement some of things you are requesting, all of your careful work will be for naught.


Wrong.

veta wrote:
In my opinion, you would be better off putting all that considerable time & effort into attempting to reverse-engineer the g2 spec so that we could program some new modules for it!


Feel free to suggest any way on how i can improve my work, time and efforts, but also feel free to work too.

If you like reverse-engineering the G2 spec, maybe you can do some disassembling the G2 56xxx ROM and show that you worked on it, here.

Currently, i´m just curious about the white noise module... and wished to see some source code, from Clavia, after all, asking them is easier than reverse-engineering... isn´t it?
(It is also just another solution for a problem, that i have a solution already, Reaktor has several white noise oscs to choose, ready to be used.)
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bantri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
No effort what so ever is a lost effort! Smile

Nice quote!

Here´s my equivalent:
Effort and reward walk with tied hands.
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bantri



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Current status v27
-Studying different layouts.
-Cloning a few more modules.
-Increasing functionality in existing modules.


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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bantri wrote:
xav(electro-music)=xavinet(NI)?
You better send xav a Personal Message then Smile

Wout
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bantri wrote:
xav(electro-music)=xavinet(NI)?


BobTheDog(electro-music)=BobTheDog(NI)

Bantri(electro-music)=(NI)?
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bantri



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yikes!
Fast responses...

bantri (everywhere)

(i remember the good´ol days when i was choosing a nick and this one showed zero ocurrences in google...)

(i left a lot of footsteps since then... [but much of the hot material was erased from many forums as the msgs became older though...])
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Chet



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This looks really neat. I've always loved the G2 interface, and the idea of a soft G2 is very appealing to me.

Have you considered the scaling of the signals between the modules? If not, I suggest using the Clavia scaling system, where oscillators put out +/- 64 units, and a VCA operates at unity gain when it's control input is 64.

I once mimicked an Arrick modular in Reaktor, and using the same "voltages" the original used helped everything fit together easier.
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bantri



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice to see you here Chet... Smile

Chet wrote:
This looks really neat. I've always loved the G2 interface, and the idea of a soft G2 is very appealing to me.


Me too.

Chet wrote:
Have you considered the scaling of the signals between the modules? If not, I suggest using the Clavia scaling system, where oscillators put out +/- 64 units, and a VCA operates at unity gain when it's control input is 64.


Oh Yesss... Twisted Evil

I already did a *very* rigorous binary arithmetic standardization in all controls *exactly* like G2 ranges.

(I am using the ADConv AND the SeqCtr to dissect *every* integer range correctly...)

(I have lots of second intentions in doing this, one of them is using *integer* core macros to speed up calculations, and truly emulate the 24 bit DSP operations, instead of using floating point.)

(I was sick to the point of rendering knobs with exactly 128 integer images and steps on this... [Looking it "under my angstromscope", i noticed that Clavia renders only 64 frames and jumps the images every 2 steps])

Chet wrote:
I once mimicked an Arrick modular in Reaktor, and using the same "voltages" the original used helped everything fit together easier.


Precisely. The ranges must be identical at the beginning of the process, otherwise, complications raise exponentially, during the development.

I assure you, that *every* macro range is being built *bit-by-bit* identical to G2 originals.

(Nice point though... only an experienced reaktorist could consider this aspect.)
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bantri wrote:
... (... only an experienced reaktorist could consider this aspect.)
Well, Chet considers a lot of aspects! Nice to read you again, Chet. NI-R and G2, two lovers together? Smile

Wout
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xav



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bantri wrote:
xav(electro-music)=xavinet(NI)?


Yes, I just subscribed to NI forum to post that message you motivated... but there is already someone called xav in NI forum.

About the NI G2, don't you think the controller interface will be hard to replace (especially the way to assign Morph, the way to copy variations, the labeled displays and control assignment)?
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bantri



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
Yes, I just subscribed to NI forum to post that message you motivated...

In that case thanks. Keep persuading!
(I´m monitoring that link in paralel with this one.)

xav wrote:
About the NI G2, don't you think the controller interface will be hard to replace (especially the way to assign Morph, the way to copy variations, the labeled displays and control assignment)?


-The morph
Probably the morph will be managed in Ableton.
(It has already a nice way to do morphs, but like the G2, it has only linear morph and sometimes it´s good to use bezier curves to alter the morph behavior[they can reproduce a very large set curve families in a single case {lines, exponentials, cosines, S curves}])
I´m still studying this.

-The variations
I think the Reaktor snapshot manager is acceptable for this... and it has 128 slots for storing variations, although problems may arise, like keeping some states untouched when switching from one variation(snapshot) to another like the G2 does, when playing live.

-Labeled displays
Can you be more specific?

-Control assignment
Don´t think that this could present a big problem, everything in Reaktor is control assignable to midi, but i am going towards orienting this assignment to a sequencer and not assigning this directly to physical controls. (those physical controls will be assigned in the sequencer and the sequencer will control vsti parameter *names* in Reaktor, which i consider much more "human readable" than midi control change numbers and tables)
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Chet



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bantri wrote:
(I have lots of second intentions in doing this, one of them is using *integer* core macros to speed up calculations, and truly emulate the 24 bit DSP operations, instead of using floating point.)

Wow, that’s hard core. Shocked

I suppose there are a couple of times where you’ll have to choose between faithfulness and audio quality. Quantizing to 24-bit values is one. Another is whether you’ll clip signals at +/- 256 Clavia units.

Myself, I’d probably choose audio quality over faithfulness, using floating point signals and not bothering to clip.
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xav



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
-Labeled displays
Can you be more specific?


Sorry, it's my limited English speaking.... I mean the way to assign a parameter to a controller, and to have automatically the name of this parameter in a display.
About controller assignment, I agree with you: Ableton is fine, but it lacks curves... I remember Kurzweil possibilities...
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bantri



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Chet wrote:
I suppose there are a couple of times where you’ll have to choose between faithfulness and audio quality.


I am not focusing on 24 because of faithfullness or quality.

I am focusing on 24, because the translation from Motorola 56xxx DSP code to Intel code it´s is easier.
(but faithfullness is a consequence of that)
(and that´s the worst part, it should be as easy as possible)

Chet wrote:
Quantizing to 24-bit values is one.

Nope.
(You´re not considering that Intel does 32 bits, so it´s only a matter of shifting everything 8 bits left in late development, to gain 256 extra resolution levels and eliminating quantization problems.)

Chet wrote:
Another is whether you’ll clip signals at +/- 256 Clavia units.

Actually i am having to hold the Reaktor beast in a leach, to make it clip exactly at the same level that G2 starts to clip.
(but... consider that I´m monitoring those clipping levels very closely...)


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bantri



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

xav wrote:
Sorry, it's my limited English speaking...

Nest´ce pas un probleme...
Je suis capable de comprenez un petit de francais aussi...
(Années épuisées lisant le "electronique pratique" magasin...)

S'il y a une certaine partie que j'étudierais d'abord, ce sera probablement la ROM.
(La représentation du paramètre sur l'affichage n'est pas une priorité pour le moment)

xav wrote:
About controller assignment, I agree with you: Ableton is fine, but it lacks curves...

Il y a des manières de résoudre l'absence des courbes dans l'ableton. (comme envoyer les lignes droites au reaktor et obtenir les courbes arrières, par exemple…)
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Meiner Lieber...

Um alles einfagger zu machen brauchen wir mehrerer Sprachen?
En ik ben maar een Hollander
(And I'm just Dutch)

I'm not a Reactor user, but the picture is puzzling me...
Are you using the G2 Demo as a VST in Reactor, or, are there just some windows layered, or, is it one HOAX using PhotoShop, or am I just a nitwit?

Where are the module folders? How about those cables between the G2 mixers and the scope???

Sigh...
And those G2 expansion boards...
Time to go on a holiday trip, I think... Very Happy

Wout
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BobTheDog



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 1:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well I had been wondering, Bantri doesn't seem to exist in the NI forums at all, neither does reactorG2 if you search for it.
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