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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
Nord Modular G3
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buzzr



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:02 am    Post subject: Nord Modular G3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, I know this is a long shot. I would like to start a petition to get a G3 on the market. Unless someone knows something we don't?
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v-un-v
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Personally, I think you would get better results, by putting a gun to your head and blowing your brains out! Laughing At least that would be instant, and would also be in RED! Laughing Laughing
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Personally, I think you would get better results, by putting a gun to your head and blowing your brains out! Laughing At least that would be instant, and would also be in RED! Laughing Laughing


Shocked
Laughing
Shocked

BTW, I still think the good old NM-1 is brilliant. The Nomad editor kinda works pretty OK too.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing I'd buy one ... but then again the Clavia folks already know that and I don't think such made them move into any direction Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

My MicroModular still sits here in front of me. It's the only synth I have left!

It's a brilliant little machine. Very Happy

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Unfed



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i don't think it'll ever happen. seems that everyone involved with the original Nord Modular and the G2 no longer work for Clavia/Nord. i'd love to know the story behind that, but i don't think there will ever be another Nord Modular in any form. in fact, i'd almost be surprised if they ever release another actual synthesizer.
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 18, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Nord Modular G3 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

buzzr wrote:
Ok, I know this is a long shot. I would like to start a petition to get a G3 on the market. Unless someone knows something we don't?


Why? They still haven't fixed all the problems with the NM1 and G2.
Do you want yet another abandoned platform with unfixed bugs?

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfed wrote:
... seems that everyone involved with the original Nord Modular and the G2 no longer work for Clavia/Nord. ...
Question
Who ever told you this?
Hans Nordelius, Magnus Kjellander and Bjorn Leander are still in charge of the company; at least they still are the main developers of Clavia, and there are some new ones.
But there are dreams inside Clavia too.

Some issues to consider.

Clavia sells the hardware, which uses software, which could generate selling more hardware. This explains the boost of updates to organ/stage piano section. And also why the Classic and the G2 will not become updated very soon. One could suggest ‘open code’, but the confusion this will generate could deliver Clavia a rather bad name on the market…

The Classic congested the selling of the G2: a large group of potentional buyers didn’t make the switch, mainly because the two platforms weren’t compatible. After all the Classic was the poor man’s Hans Zimmer Midi wall Wink Why buy a new one if it can't do the things the old one can?
Clavia tried to correct sales with a return deal, but it didn’t work.

The organ/piano line is doing fine, specially the Electro3. Clavia still makes synthesizers, the Wave and the good old Red Lady, the NordLead2X. Looking at this section it is important to notice why these machines run so well: they are easy to operate and the level of the NordLead could be the highest acceptable level to the public in general. Clavia understands this and nor the lay-out nor the backwards compatibility will be changed. Even without the fact delivering of the DSP’s had stopped the NordLead wasn’t selling that big, in my opinion because it was much more complicated…

Most important Clavia is a company which wants to be in a leading position of development. The G2 platform is rather flexible. Where the Classic was handicapped by it’s somewhat old design, the G2 isn’t. Sometimes you can see a Clavia employee sitting in the Stockholm subway with a silly grin on his face, meaning he is fantasizing about new gear Wink
So is it wise to write Clavia about your own idea’s…?
Nord website FAQ wrote:
I have a great idea for a new product! Can I show it to you?

If your idea is something we already thought of, and even spent months in development, things could easily get complicated when we release "your" idea without offering you compensation. So, thank you for the offer but unfortunately the answer is no.
So all you write here will never be build Smile

Wait and hope…

Wout
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alcofribas



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good to know that the original designers of the Modular(s) are still at the helm.

BUT

The argument that "Clavia doesn't want an open source development model because it would wreak havoc with quality control" is ...hmm... *very* unconvincing, because

-- SOME G2 BUGS THAT DATE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING ARE STILL THERE.

and

-- All it takes to enforce quality is the commitment to have an "approval" process, with the "authorized" modules downloadable on a Clavia-hosted site.

And let the people use the unauthorized ones at their own risk.

I understand that the non-backwards-compatibility of the G2 had some adverse effect on its sales. But Tim pointed out repeatedly what is IMHO a much more potent factor, namely the way the beast was marketed. The lack of a good line of factory patches and attempts at making the thing plug-and-playable for non-technical users made it so that only synthesis geeks were interested, while non-geeks were scared.

Clavia has been really successful with its plug-and-play lines of instruments. So if they want to go on with the G2/3, either they make a serious effort to make something that's both modular and plug-and-playable, or they admit that it is not a general-public product and try to exploit the energies of the commited user base to recoup their losses.

Personally if they release an SDK I'm even willing to learn that infect monstrosity C++ (I'd be surprised if they used another language for the PC-side programming, but it would be a happy surprise).

Alcofribas
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think they use C and the odd chunk of embedded assembly.

I have a hunch that one reason that we're all loving the G2 is the fact that it wasn't made idiot-proof, with blueprint trance-presets. I happen to think that the G2 presets are the best I've seen yet, compared to other synths I've owned (e.g. the Alesis Ion, the Evolver and lately the Arturia Origin). I can actually scroll through the patch list and find a preset that I'll end up using as-is on a song.

I only have the Engine, but I've heard a lot of praise for the hardware interface on the key versions. Do you think that you would like that interface as much even if you had no idea about what the system looks like under the hood, like what a morph groups is and how the sequencer modules work?

I think the G2 is relatively bugfree, compared to synths of similar complexity.

I think the G2 sold as much as it could have. The target user base just isn't big enough for the profit margin. Maybe they just set the price too low?

/Stefan

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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

First of all a remarkable observation in your posting…
Your location is Eastern France, but the French and also the Germans or Italians are known not to be the best users of the English language and you are using it rather well, so you are probably on holidays? Wink
BTW this is a compliment! Smile
alcofribas wrote:
Good to know that the original designers of the Modular(s) are still at the helm.

BUT

The argument that "Clavia doesn't want an open source development model because it would wreak havoc with quality control" is ...hmm... *very* unconvincing, because
-- SOME G2 BUGS THAT DATE FROM THE VERY BEGINNING ARE STILL THERE.
and
-- All it takes to enforce quality is the commitment to have an "approval" process, with the "authorized" modules downloadable on a Clavia-hosted site.
Why should they do that? I won’t sell more G2’s, because they don't produce it anymore…
Quote:
And let the people use the unauthorized ones at their own risk.
I understand that the non-backwards-compatibility of the G2 had some adverse effect on its sales. But Tim pointed out repeatedly what is IMHO a much more potent factor, namely the way the beast was marketed. The lack of a good line of factory patches and attempts at making the thing plug-and-playable for non-technical users made it so that only synthesis geeks were interested, while non-geeks were scared.
There you hit the nail on its head! Marketing an Electro3 is much easier because there is a large group of musicians who want the sound of a real piano, a Rhodes or a Hammond. But how to market a modular synth? Isn’t the liberty of constructing your own idea’s the reason to buy the modular concept? So what are interesting factory patches concerning a modular synth? (To market a car a company can advertise some of the uses of their products, like touring with your family or picking up some girls. EMS did something like that: “Every picnic needs a Synthi.” But it is impossible to point out the road to drive you car…)
Quote:
Clavia has been really successful with its plug-and-play lines of instruments.
The reason for that is give above.
Quote:
So if they want to go on with the G2/3, either they make a serious effort to make something that's both modular and plug-and-playable,
Plug&Play indicates easy useability, where modular doesn’t…
Quote:
or they admit that it is not a general-public product
They always stated the G2 was a ‘niche’ product
Quote:
and try to exploit the energies of the commited user base to recoup their losses.
To the Classic there is a Patch Archive of over 25 000 Patches. It didn’t work either…
Quote:
Personally if they release an SDK I'm even willing to learn that infect monstrosity C++ (I'd be surprised if they used another language for the PC-side programming, but it would be a happy surprise).
Aren’t you lucky they will never release it? Wink

But there is still important questions about marketing a modular synth…

Is there a profile of the user?
Is there a general user?
What are users doing with their modular synth?
(Of course making music is a stupid answer to that question)
Why is a modular synth a better choice than a pre-patched synth?
What are user missing in a modular synth?
This list can be make longer and longer…

Wout
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alcofribas



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
Why should they do that? I won’t sell more G2’s, because they don't produce it anymore…


Wout, you're getting close to inconsistency. You keep telling us to wait and pray and not completely give up hope with Clavia, you have just stressed the importance of upwards compatibility, you are raising the problems associated with selling a modular to the general public, you tell me Clavia have admitted from the start that the Modulars were niche products... and then you tell me there is not point in trying to harness the work of the dedicated users who could make technical contributions if only they were allowed to, just because it won't sell more G2s.

The point is not about selling more G2s, it's about developing a viable business model for modulars. When I mentioned an SDK I didn't have the presently available hardware specifically in mind, although even then such a venture, based on discontinued models, would be useful for testing the viability of the SDK approach at minimal cost... and Clavia are quite sensitive about upwards compatibility so that wouldn't be lost work for the all-too-hypothetical G3.

A startup like Clavia usually begins when a bunch of tech-oriented people (not to call them "geeks") get together to develop a product that THEY are enthusiastic about. Sooner or later Reality rears its ugly head and they have to readjust their goals to be commercially viable.

But Look at Native Instruments. Their first product was Reaktor, truly a geek's dream, and sure enough Reaktor now only gets a fraction of their attention, since the easy-to play software is so much more profitable. BUT THEY HAVEN'T GIVEN IT UP. They are beta-testing 5.5 right now. And in the course of all these years they have come much closer to an SDK approach than Clavia, in the form of Reaktor Kore. And users have contributed some excellent Kore modules (not enough to my taste, I admit).

And we all agree that Clavia Modulars are so much more fun to program than Reaktor, even if they are less powerful. And a hardware synth is really more stable and responsive than softsynth (note to Antimon: I agree that the G2 is relatively bug free, but it doesn't mean that well documented bugs should be allowed to stay there forever).

I have been looking for a potential alternative to the G2, and there is nothing still that comes close. I am sure that there are enough people like me to make a niche that a manufacturer will exploit eventually. But then that manufacturer ought to be Clavia, right?

Perhaps Antimon is right, and that they should have priced it higher to make it viable commercially. Just compare the price of an Engine with Reaktor. As far as VFM is concerned, it was a no-brainer, wasn't it?


Alcofribas

PS Concerning Wout's compliment on my English, let me just say that I've been living in Yurrp for 20 years but that I'm actually North American. Those of you with a taste in French literary classics can guess my first name from my nick.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

alcofribas wrote:
I'm actually North American. Those of you with a taste in French literary classics can guess my first name from my nick.


Idea

Francois... Exclamation Frank Question

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alcofribas



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:

Idea
Francois... Exclamation Frank Question

Correct! But nobody ever called Frank for some reason.
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Antimon



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

alcofribas wrote:

A startup like Clavia usually begins when a bunch of tech-oriented people (not to call them "geeks") get together to develop a product that THEY are enthusiastic about. Sooner or later Reality rears its ugly head and they have to readjust their goals to be commercially viable.


The difference between Clavia and NI is that Clavia started out making drum triggers, then moved on to pioneering VA with Nord Lead before the Nord Modular appeared. After the modulars came the Stage and Wave. Nord Modular stands out as a bit of a detour for them really.

I think Wout has said at some time that the Nord Modular was born when someone noticed the clever toolkit that the developers were using for making the Nord Leads, and suggested they refine it into what became the Nord Modular.

alcofribas wrote:

I have been looking for a potential alternative to the G2, and there is nothing still that comes close. I am sure that there are enough people like me to make a niche that a manufacturer will exploit eventually. But then that manufacturer ought to be Clavia, right?


Reading that paragraph makes me realise how much I agree with you. It's heartbreaking really. While the G2 is great as it is, there is so much potential for making it into something truly legendary. Personally I'm wishing for someone to realise this and make a good clone or imitation that they can build on, as pure software or a hardware box like the G2.

/Stefan

Edit: typos

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:

alcofribas wrote:

I have been looking for a potential alternative to the G2, and there is nothing still that comes close. I am sure that there are enough people like me to make a niche that a manufacturer will exploit eventually. But then that manufacturer ought to be Clavia, right?


Reading that paragraph makes me realise how much I agree with you. It's heartbreaking really. While the G2 is great as it is, there is so much potential for making it into something truly legendary. Personally I'm wishing for someone to realise this and make a good clone or imitation that they can build on, as pure software or a hardware box like the G2.

/Stefan

Edit: typos


Observation:
In the price range of stuff like the G2 and Arturia Origin, the omnipotent polka boards are still the ones that attract the customers. Sure, most of these are really very good these days. They can do all sorts of impressive shit, but the selling point is probably that they first of all have tons of wonderful presets. The mass market isn´t really interested in geeky synthesis at all.

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alcofribas



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
The difference between Clavia and NI is that Clavia started out making drum triggers, then moved on to pioneering VA with Nord Lead before the Nord Modular appeared. After the modulars came the Stage and Wave. Nord Modular stands out as a bit of a detour for them really.

I think Wout has said at some time that the Nord Modular was born when someone noticed the clever toolkit that the developers were using for making the Nord Leads, and suggested they refine it into what became the Nord Modular.


That's a most interesting bit of information. All I knew is that they'd started with drum machines. So they stumbled upon greatness... but still, the UI is an important factor of that greatness and it owes nothing to the Nord Lead.


Quote:
In the price range of stuff like the G2 and Arturia Origin, the omnipotent polka boards are still the ones that attract the customers. Sure, most of these are really very good these days. They can do all sorts of impressive shit, but the selling point is probably that they first of all have tons of wonderful presets. The mass market isn´t really interested in geeky synthesis at all.


Well we're explicitly discussing niche markets here and they do exist. A 40 year old almost-impossible-to-play-in-tune EMS Synthi fetches 5000 euros these days. Now that's what "truly legendary" means... perhaps it is the fate of the G2 after all. Let's hope Clavia is still around in 30 years and wait for the G2 Collector's Edition.

But really it shouldn't be that way.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It is a shame they let nord modular G2 users like that, stoping hardware production is one thing(...we can understand), but leaving the modular market with a buggy v1.62 like that...???. I DON'T UNDERSTAND...
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
... I think Wout has said at some time that the Nord Modular was born when someone noticed the clever toolkit that the developers were using for making the Nord Leads, and suggested they refine it into what became the Nord Modular. ...
Well, to tell the truth about the birth of the modulars...
The Mord Modular Classic was, in its shape as it was introduced and running V3.03 (or maybe still V2.10, because V3.03 didn't bring much new modules), used to develop the NordLead3. But it was already on sale.
The birth of the Classic was in fact on a mountain in India, where two developers, one being Magnus Kjelander, were sitting on a stone and discussing what specs a modular synth ought to have. (That stone was me... Wink) Magnus told this in a lecture once held in The Hague back in 2002, which I have on my computer but still no green light to publish. He also showed the first Editor which graphics prestented the modules vertical, like Moog modules. All by all it is still a very interesting story about choices. That lecture was in the days Clavia noticed the Classic had a bottle neck, its CPU, and a new platform had to be developed.

Wout
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The only things I miss in my G2 are:

- Better sound quality overall, meaning, more analog quality than mathematical precision, with dedicated modules. Better sync without aliasing, and of course better modeled filters.

- Sample oscillator, in the style of the Nord Wave. Of course, supporting the absolutely IMPRESSIVE collection of samples they have now...

- Perhaps some additional functions like unison mode (without rare tricks), arpeggiator building blocks, and possibility of using audio as CV outs, allowing perfect integration of analog and virtual modules.

I would gladly pay at least 600 euros more for those additions to my G2, without hesitation.


The possibility of using the Nord sample library in a modular environment is a much more valuable evolution than the jump between the G1 and G2, in my opinion.

One thing I never liked about the marketing of the G2 is the sentence "a soft synthesizer in a hard case". A big fail in my opinion. With those terms a laptop would seem more appropriate...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We have discussed here before just making the Nord Wave a modular and add some new and more interesting modules and call it a day. But still nothing. Clavia is missing a great opportunity now to release something while the hardware modular environment has heated up dramatically.

Reaktor 5.5 is mostly a GUI revamp. Not much new there. And putting together modules with Reaktor is no fun at all. Besides, when I have used Reaktor with feedback paths, my computer system cannot handle it at all and Reaktor overloads. The G2 has no problem using feedback and other throttle techniques that I've used with modulars for years. Just like a modular synth should !

Wout, you give me hope that they will develop a new modular. I hope it's true.

In the meantime I guess we shouldn't have a petition?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 19, 2010 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

the argument that providing an SDK wouldn't spur sales of the G2 or would somehow lead to the platform becoming unstable due to 'bad' modules is complete nonsense. one only has to look at the success of the iPhone app store or the thousands of objects available for Max/MSP to see that.

if there were a constant source of new modules for the G2, the capabilities of the G2 would keep increasing and its useful life would be extended. people would see this and be more likely to purchase it as they knew they would get a good return on their investment. the amount of good press alone would be enough for Clavia to sell many more units. every blog/electronic music magazine would be talking about this.

i think Clavia should release a G3 with more horsepower/sampling capability and the day it is released it should come with an SDK. it should also have a lot more 'high level' modules (example: pre-built effects, or things like the 'drum synth' module with it's own presets) that would make it quicker & easier for newbies to patch up something useful. it will still be a 'niche' tool, but it will be a much more successful one.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If I ran the zoo at Nord, what I would do is release a new product, intended to replace the Wave, that would combine the capabilities of the Wave and the G2. Out of the box, it would act pretry much like a Wave, but with the ability for the user to install additional sample memory with a CF card so there would be enough memory to store the whole sample library. It would use G2/Lead 3-style encoders instead of the knobs it uses. Nord claims they're too expensive, but you can buy an Akai APC40 with sixteen such knobs and a lot of other stuff for $300 -- how expensive can they be?

If you connect it to a computer, you'd be able to use the same Nord Sample Editor that the Wave uses.

Internally, the Wave functionality would really be a G3 patch. G3 patches would be like G2 patches but with additional modules available. There would be a way to save G3 patches that use only G2 modules in compatibility mode so that they could be loaded onto a G2.

From an economic viewpoint, I think Nord has to update the Wave eventually -- selling an instrument with sampling as its strong point gets progressively harder as the part of the sample library that can fit in the keyboard's memory gets progressively smaller. So I think it's not a question of whether Nord will update the Wave, it's a question of when they will either update it or discontinue it. And if they do update it, I can't imagine it would be all that hard to use the G2 codebase.
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buzzr



Joined: Dec 13, 2007
Posts: 360
Location: portland
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G2 patch files: 1

PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

veta wrote:
the argument that providing an SDK wouldn't spur sales of the G2 or would somehow lead to the platform becoming unstable due to 'bad' modules is complete nonsense. one only has to look at the success of the iPhone app store or the thousands of objects available for Max/MSP to see that.

i think Clavia should release a G3 with more horsepower/sampling capability and the day it is released it should come with an SDK. it should also have a lot more 'high level' modules (example: pre-built effects, or things like the 'drum synth' module with it's own presets) that would make it quicker & easier for newbies to patch up something useful. it will still be a 'niche' tool, but it will be a much more successful one.


The market for modular products is almost 100 percent DIY. So an SDK would make more sense then not.

Are you listening Clavia?
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Wout Blommers



Joined: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 4517
Location: The Hague - The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

buzzr wrote:
... Are you listening Clavia?
They are, but they will seldom answer...
Clavia is monitoring all things about their products.
BTW at the moment they are on holidays.

Wout
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