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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Lunetta drum machine suggestions
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rich decibels



Joined: Apr 01, 2010
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:05 pm    Post subject: Lunetta drum machine suggestions Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hello fellers

I want to get more percussive with my audio doodlings. Has anyone got an experience with making drum-ish noises with Lunetta-ish circuits? It doesn't have to be 'strictly' Lunetta, I just want some booms and clicks to come out of a glitchy lofi cheap circuit.

Ta
Rich
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok i dreamt up a drum machine idea along time ago. The idea was the basically use a 4017 to drive a series of 4066 gates.

Wire your 4017 to make a 4 step sequencer, then wire each step to the data input of your 4066s. I imagine it would take you at least 4x4066's to do it right.

Then set up a 40106 to make 4xoscillators and run them into the through pins of the 4066, then tie all the output pins of the 4066's together.

If everthing works, you could dial the 0scillators into "kick/bass" range, hit hat "click" range, and what ever to get a suedo drum machine.

One enhancement, but i dont think it would work with a 4066, since it only accepts digital squarewAves, would be to use a noise sorce through a set of lowpass filters to mimic kick, snare, hat.

heres a quick QUICK doodle.


lunettadrummer.PNG
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so..... more thoughts:

replace the 4066s with solid state relays and then you could run a noise source into a passive LP for Kick, BP for snare, HP for hat--->BAM drum machine.


Further juiciness could come from taking the clock pulse and running the summed out through a simple VCA of sorts.

...thoughts?

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worlock93



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:

Quote:
One enhancement, but i dont think it would work with a 4066, since it only accepts digital squarewAves


Actually, I believe the 4066 in/outs support analog or digital signals.
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

...add on/off switches to the data in from the 4017 to make it programmable.

oh! and LEDs on each step.


...and welcome worlock93- i never knew that about 4066s... one of the biggest reasons i never play with them more: my earliest tests with the chips proved unsuccessful dealing with audio sources, but i guess i'll have to try it again since its been quite a long time since then.

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tjookum



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice topic, I've also struggeled with the same problem. One day I showed my lunetta to a friend who plays bass, and although he liked the strange blips and bleeps he pointed out that a simple beat would go a long way with this.

To keep in the "lunetta spirit" I wanted something to be fully patchable and very simple. The attached schematic is what I came up with, it's my very first schematic and it has a some problems. After I built it I discovered that multiple switches on one step make both patterns flow together. And also adjacent steps on the 4017 get connected together so really it works more like a 4 step sequencer. A way around this is to use a AND gate to connect the output and the incoming clock together, this gives you half steps.

I also found this excellent simple VCA/EG schem by Rykhaard from the T.S.O.L. forum. One of these after the 4066 outputs would turn any incoming signal into a useable drumsound.

And don't just feed it oscillators, I tried all kinds of stuff and got great results with musical greetingcards and circuitbend toys. One idea I had was to use 4 simple 10 second samplers like those found in kids toys.

Im curious to see what you guys come up with.


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worlock93



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="stolenfat"]...and welcome worlock93- [/quote ]

Thank you Smile


Quote:
i never knew that about 4066s... one of the biggest reasons i never play with them more: my earliest tests with the chips proved unsuccessful dealing with audio sources, but i guess i'll have to try it again since its been quite a long time since then.


Yeah awhile back I saw a project that used the 4066 and not being familiar with the chip I looked up the datasheet and was surprised to see it could hand analog and digital input. My mind raced with various ideas (amusingly gating drum sounds was one of those ideas! ) but, of course, I got busy with other things and completely forgot about it. I just placed an order with mouser and included some of these so I can give them test.
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rich decibels



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good ideas everyone, I look forward to trying them out next time I'm in the workshop. As far as the programming and sequencing goes, I think I'm sweet - that's all 'natural' logic behaviour. The bit I don't know so much about is generating the sounds to begin with. I want one module for each sound, but I'm having trouble imagining what those modules look like. There's probably enough here for me to start tinkering with though.
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richardc64



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Pardon me while I Rolling Eyes for a bit.

With a 4066 analog switch all you'll get is an on/off burst of whatever, with the fast attack of percussion but without any decay. If you're gonna be satisfied with featureless, dynamic-less clicks and thumps why not just use an AND to gate whatever on/off?

The best thing for percussive sounds on this page so far is the VCA/EG tjookum posted. For strictly percussion envelopes you don't need the Attack pot; just the "right-pointing" diode, though you might want to keep the pot to keep the circuit general purpose. If the Attack pot is omitted, the "left-pointing" diode isn't needed. Just connect that end of the Decay pot to ground with a resistor 5-10k or so. You might want to use a higher value pot and smaller value cap. I've found 250k or more & 4.7uF a useful combination.

Personally, I'd go with something even simpler, but I'm tired of repeating myself.

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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well, it is entirely possible my idea is very broken. It was just something i dreamed up that felt like it would work out.
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Ajax



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PostPosted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:
well, it is entirely possible my idea is very broken. It was just something i dreamed up that felt like it would work out.


It totally will work (I think). And if it gives you the sounds you want, go for it Very Happy Rich was just offering alternatives.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ajax wrote:
Rich was just offering alternatives.


Yes, in my usual diplomatic style.

Actually, it might be possible to arrange a 4066 to give audio-rate logic levels an envelope "contour." The suggestion was made by Tim (parenthical signature) Servo in this thread. http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-23960.html
The idea is to apply the envelope CV to one side of the analog switch, and connect the digital signal you want to hear to the switch Control pin. The 4066 output would have to be capacitor-coupled, otherwise whatever it's connected to will drain the charge off the envelope cap, altering the Decay. Alternatively, the envelope could be buffered before the analog switch with an op amp, or emitter follower, but that would add complexity.

That thread begins with a different simple VCA.


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Top Top



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've been in the middle of making a cmos based drum machine for a long time. I came up with really simple percussive voices using 4093, a really basic AD generator and an LDR/LED combo. The gate is standard CMOS on/off, but the AD generator on the pitch makes for a very drum like sound (synthetic sounding of course) in a way that you don't really notice the strict on/off amplitude gating.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Sorry, the software I use doesn't have the propper NAND symbol so I just used an opamp symbol. Also, I think I showed my pot symbol upside down. Use your imagination. Laughing

Note also the lines that cross but have no node dot. There is no electrical connection there.

Here are two videos with this drum machine using these voices on my breadboard, and in both videos synced to another CMOS synth. The drum machine has three of these types of voices set to different pitches. The "high hat" sound is based on a white noise generator with added envelope controlling it.




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rich decibels



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

so with your circuit tjookum, do you feed an audio-rate oscillator into the point marked "from digital output" and then send pulses to the "gate in" to get the sound?

sorry for the noobish questions, I don't have net access at my workshop at the moment so I have to get my theory straight before I get into the shop!

Also thanks for that circuit Top Top, I'll give it a whirl, your stuff sounds great.
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rich decibels



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I see that question has already been answered by Top Top:

Quote:

In the "from digital out" you plug your "audio" signal - any oscillator, sound source, etc...

In the GATE in, you plug any positive voltage source - it could be from a counter, a clock, even a switch/button wired to let your source voltage through when you press it.

A clock, if it is too fast, might not give you the best results, though then again, might give you something interesting. A "Gate" signal is generally just a sustained positive voltage.

The closer to the source voltage that your gate is, the more dynamic the action of the envelope generator will be.

http://electro-music.com/forum/viewtopic.php?highlight=envelope&t=42337


Top Top, pardon my ignorance but how exactly to convert your noise source into a triggerable unit with AR control? I feel like my general synth knowledge is exploding right now and I'm trying to keep up without sounding like too much of a noob!
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Top Top



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PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

rich decibels wrote:


Top Top, pardon my ignorance but how exactly to convert your noise source into a triggerable unit with AR control? I feel like my general synth knowledge is exploding right now and I'm trying to keep up without sounding like too much of a noob!


This is sort of backwards, but here's how I did it, again using an LED/LDR:

Basically the LDR is cutting off the +V to part of the noise source unless the LED is lit allowing the LDR to drop low enough for the noise source to start generating noise. The values on both the envelope generator/LED and the noise source part were tweaked to get a decent range of decay times.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

Again, sorry, the pot symbol is upside down. Also, I just noticed that I put "lower value = thicker noise" but it should actually be higher value = thicker noise on that cap.

Note that I was unable to get the noise source to work at 9V. 12V might work. I used 13.5V.

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rich decibels



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PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

winner! alright. workshop time. cheers to you sir
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textual



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 4:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:
Ok i dreamt up a drum machine idea along time ago. The idea was the basically use a 4017 to drive a series of 4066 gates.

Wire your 4017 to make a 4 step sequencer, then wire each step to the data input of your 4066s. I imagine it would take you at least 4x4066's to do it right.

Then set up a 40106 to make 4xoscillators and run them into the through pins of the 4066, then tie all the output pins of the 4066's together.

If everthing works, you could dial the 0scillators into "kick/bass" range, hit hat "click" range, and what ever to get a suedo drum machine.

One enhancement, but i dont think it would work with a 4066, since it only accepts digital squarewAves, would be to use a noise sorce through a set of lowpass filters to mimic kick, snare, hat.

heres a quick QUICK doodle.


I wanted to give this a shot since I too am trying to figure out some nice CMOS based drums, I was thinking of just getting some DS7 clones and adding them, which I may still do... either way I have all of these things patchable at the moment.

patched up:

clock -> 4017, the 4 outs -> to 4066 switches, inputs go to 4 oscillators, out puts sum together, and then go to the signal in on a simple VCA, the trigger for the VCA is another simple clock at the moment, and the VCA output then goes to mixer..
the low range is pretty nice, for missile command type explosions, and the high pitch sounds like cowbell is almost.. (ironically 6 40106 oscillators summed is supposedly the cornerstone of the cowbell sound).. anyhoo...
also a neat difference in sound when the clock to the 4017 is at high rates, vs. low rates. With the 4 oscillators in hi ranges and the 4017 clock in slow the outs get triggered at random times (with a slower running trigger clock in to the VCA) and sounds awesome...
I hope this all makes sense?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 03, 2010 8:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

What is the role of the 4066? To open a switch to allow audio to come through?
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Top Top wrote:
What is the role of the 4066? To open a switch to allow audio to come through?


exactly.

also your 4093 schematic above...will it run on 9V?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Why exactly are we summing the outputs? What purpose does that serve?
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textual



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ajax wrote:
Why exactly are we summing the outputs? What purpose does that serve?


I guess in a sense its like ring mod, you are combining the signals together to create the sound that then gets enveloped.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

textual wrote:
Top Top wrote:
What is the role of the 4066? To open a switch to allow audio to come through?


exactly.

also your 4093 schematic above...will it run on 9V?


Yes, the 4093 part will.

The high hat/noise part didn't seem to work at 9V.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread



here is a clip of the 4017 counting through switching the 4066 to open up random notes from tuned oscillators, which are summed to 2 separate outputs... which then go into 2 simple VCAs.. which are being triggered by a slowish running 4024 to let whatever stage of 4066 note is on to pass through the VCAs.. cool randomish sounds- also some LP filters in the background with other notes playing through

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rich decibels



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PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2010 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And now for something completely different: http://www.nerdkits.com/videos/robotic_xylophone/

roll your own solenoid percussion. Clearly not Lunetta per se but will interface well with Lunetta modules.
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