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What is written music and why is it more serious?
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seraph
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
I still think limits are a welcome thing.

I sincerely agree. IMO freedom of expression does not necessarily mean do whatever you want for reasons like:
there are not set rules
the rules were written by old farts
we are too hip to pay any attention to them
we set our own rules and everything before us stinks
I know this feeling because I thought like that when I was a teenager. now I know a little better and.....
Thomas A. Edison wrote:
Genius is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent perspiration

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Structure and limits are both important. Perhaps using "limits" is wrong here though. I guess what we are on about is internal logic and containment of the ideas. This is more about enhancing the very fabric of the music rather than posing "limitations" for the composer.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Luigi Russolo, Art of Noises wrote:

...everyone will acknowledge that all musical sound carries with it a development of sensations that are already familiar and exhausted, and which predispose the listener to boredom in spite of the efforts of all the innovatory musicians. We Futurists have deeply loved and enjoyed the harmonies of the great masters. For many years Beethoven and Wagner shook our nerves and hearts. Now we are satiated and we find far more enjoyment in the combination of the noises of trams, backfiring motors, carriages and bawling crowds than in rehearsing, for example, the “Eroica” or the “Pastoral”


Anyway. I understand your point mosc and I wasn't being derogatory towards a group of people in general but rather institutions and they way drain art of meaning and allow people to make a profession of rearranging hollow shells. I may dismiss whole gobs of music as tripe when making scathing, opinionated statements about art but my ears know that even if someone is intentionally trying to make inaccessible crap it can still contain beauty, meaning, creativity, etc., because really we're not 100% responsible for the music we make. There are other forces at work.

I see this turning into the old Virtuoso vs. Idiot Savant discussion. Hmm..I think it's in here: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-3468.html&highlight=musician And I don't care if some people want to call their music serious but I still think it's pretentious. The music world is riddled with pretension.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

play wrote:
...but rather institutions and they way drain art of meaning and allow people to make a profession of rearranging hollow shells.


Academic music pretty much suffers from the same trend as academic art. Music is of course art, but there are different schools on this and different traditions on how to read art.

The way I see it, the current problem ( .. or perhaps it is not a problem.. ) is that a lot of contemporary music is supposed to have a meta take on music itself and the recent music history. This does not really sound problematic as such, but I really feel this is getting slightly out of hand. The composers themselves aren´t the problem, but rather the whole academic system that favors certain material and doing the wrong thing can defiinitively ruin your life. Beth Anderson has some insight on this here.
Beth has however done very well, even though she decided to her own music her way.


I believe this is something that will burn out soon though. I might be wrong, but personally I see the need for the establisment of a new tradition within contemporary music/experimental music. I don´t mean new as in in new.. but rather new in the way of a reinvention and reconstruction. We don´t have to ditch anything. An important part in this will be communities like this one. Claiming importance and relevance and seriousness, but without doing serious harm to those brows?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 6:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

on notation:

It has experienced some loose descriptions of being unapplicable to modern music (that was my impression at least), whether that be improvisation on synthesizers or other instruments. One limitation of formal music notation is that it does not allow much in the ways of documenting timbre or color. I'm sure this is due to a lack of classical instruments that could really take advantage of this kind of thing, other than a mute in a horn or something of the like.

I have seen notations from modern electronic composers, ranging from squarepusher to academically accepted guys. The common element between them is the use of graph paper. Some of their notations resemble piano roll graphs, others have the formal music notation accompanied with personal notations for timbre changes, and others have a buch of math equations scattered about, graph plots, etc.

I wanted to know if there was a more academically accepted form of notation, something that could be more universal and maybe widespread. However, there are so many different types of gear that achieve similar sounds in such different ways that such a notation may limit the thinking or creative process that could be uniquely found with an instrument. The composers and their notations I mentioned are kind of evidence of this: some of them achieved very similar sounds, but the documentation (notation) of their thought process was something very different between them.

Getting to some kind of point, improvisation can be a great equalizer amidst a lot of ways of thinking and different syntaxes.

However, I do see a benefit in formal notation. It is a good way to communicate ideas, whether that be to an end performer or another composer, etc. It also provides a portability that a laptop can't even compete with. (If you have an idea, you can write it down, and no crashed hard-drive or bad driver can interfere with that.) I am sure there are many other advantages other people can think of. Many classical era composers may not have written as much sheet music if they had MIDI instruments and laptops, but I am willing to bet Beethoven would have still notated.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great post, Zynthetix

As far as notation goes, all we have that actually works is the "traditional" notation. It is not great for timbre,pathces and that kind of stuff. Alternative forms of modern notation are great for the composer, but not always that helpful for a baffled ensemble trying to figure it out. I don´t see a solution to this.

I use notation myself. I usually figure out what I want to do by thinking the music. Later on I write. I also use all sorts of nonsensical comments and stuff that clearly will not be understood by anyone else. I usually throw in some flowcharts and patch sheets. I don´t see that as a problem anymore, because I do most of the playing myself these days. I guess I would see it differently if I had to go back to working with ensembles for performing the music. Working this way suits me well.
The actual use of notation is only on side of it though. I enjoy the planning and the abstract construction of the music. I feel I can focus well on detail and structure without being distracted.

This method allows me to do what I want, but the method itself does not say anything about the worth or relevance of the music.
Notation and other methods are mere tools. Improvisation and using a seqúencer with piano roll/ score edit modes would probably work well too. I have tried that approach a few times, and it can be quite useful.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
I think our palate is simply unable to get around the variety of dynamic textures without the limits of rules and structure. Perhaps "serious" music is just one that creates the known limits before beginning as opposed to an open ended creative process that is still searching for its defining boundaries.

Once these boundaries are defined, the art is focused and notation becomes a relevant thing, adding and supporting the structure.


Another great post.

I strongly believe that a piece of music can construct its own internal logic and thus contain its own sets of rules. To a certain extent a piece of music will then define itself. However, external references can be used, and often successfully. You might say that I appreciate a framework that defines the music and the content. I strongly feel that all music works the same way on this level. Dicthing all "rules" and defining sets of logic will however hardly benefit the music at all. Of course, if this is done in a systemic way, new sets of rules have been constructed. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There are times when notation is pretty essential, like when you're going to get more a handful of musicians to play, or if you want to communicate musicians with whom you don't have a real-time repore.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

music notation is simply a language, a tool. Being fluent on it makes you able to play and, doing so, study the music of someone else. We can communicate on this forum because we share the same (more or less) knowledge of the English language.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 2:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Perhaps using "limits" is wrong here though.

OK, let's say "restrictions". When I had to write children music the starting material was usually minimal and I had to develop it without going too far away from it. that was a restriction, a limit but also a challenge. I had to think of something to solve the problem and it was a good exercise. I am quite proud of, at least, a few of those children songs.

the problem with "serious composers" is, I think, their lack of sense of humour. Their are too self-absorbed. Of course I am not saying that all composers are swell headed. You gotta have a sense of humour to think of a piece like 4'33" Exclamation
read about it here. a silent piece in 3 movements:
"I. Tacet. II. Tacet. III. Tacet" Shocked
"Has there ever been a performance of 4'33" where the audience applauded between movements?"   Rolling Eyes

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

play wrote:
I see this turning into the old Virtuoso vs. Idiot Savant discussion.

never mind the Virtuoso and/or Idiot Savant, beware of the Idiot Virtuoso Shocked

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

seraph wrote:

never mind the Virtuoso and/or Idiot Savant, beware of the Idiot Virtuoso Shocked

never mind the Virtuoso and/or Idiot Savant, beware of the Idiot Twisted Evil
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
dmosc wrote:
I think our palate is simply unable to get around the variety of dynamic textures without the limits of rules and structure. Perhaps "serious" music is just one that creates the known limits before beginning as opposed to an open ended creative process that is still searching for its defining boundaries.

Once these boundaries are defined, the art is focused and notation becomes a relevant thing, adding and supporting the structure.


Another great post.

I strongly believe that a piece of music can construct its own internal logic and thus contain its own sets of rules. To a certain extent a piece of music will then define itself. However, external references can be used, and often successfully. You might say that I appreciate a framework that defines the music and the content. I strongly feel that all music works the same way on this level. Dicthing all "rules" and defining sets of logic will however hardly benefit the music at all. Of course, if this is done in a systemic way, new sets of rules have been constructed. Very Happy


forgive the quote tree but I wanted to maintain some of my text as well.

I think the difference is central to the idea of "serious" music. The boundaries can be completely unique but I still think they are required for a serious composition. Not knowing them ahead of time leads to more exploration than composition.

For example, when reviewing my father's music, I greatly prefer when he has sat down with a set of concepts, goals, etc. Essentially rules and structure. When he simply records the random sounds created by a patch as he randomly turns nobs, I find it much hard to... sit through. I don't need 4:4 time and 120 bpm or tradition instrumentation, I only need intent and structure.

I think experimental music is too oriented towards rebelling against certain things rather than expressing certain things. For instance, a person will write pieces avoiding a time signature, yet has no reason other than the fact they don't want to be like everybody else. I suppose one could say the rules are to be supprising and unexpected but to me this is more an ambient affar like hearing a car horn roar from outside in the middle of your flute concerto.

I would so much rather hear a person stand up and explain what you can expect to hear and how it will progress before playing a new inventive style. It would mean that could be supprised by my emotions and sensations rather than the content itself.

Copland says in his book that art is made by these emotions and not by the things themselves. Why do we find art in the sound of a babbling brook? Because it gives us an emotional connection. A car horn rarely seems musical as it cuts through out of the blue yet that same car horn becomes very much musical as a parade of cars goes down the street, all honking away. The difference is the structure and expectation.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I do not feel expectation is a necessary element. When I hear a ii chord followed by a V chord, I can bet large sums of money a I or a vi is next in line. Not knowing what to expect can be refreshing. John Cage's chance music was geared more toward this idea. However, chance music presents a paradox (like random numbers from a computer) as it is only pseudo-random since many "random" aspects of Cage's music are within intentional, finite parameters. The result is a structure, but the listeners can still be surprised. As for things like this sounding random, some of Parker's music may apply, but when slowed down and analyzed there is some very deep, complex stuff going on that was intentionally improvised.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Expectations can lead to disappointment. One will enjoy music more when it is approached with as little expectation as possible. When one's expectations are not met, it's possible to become upset.

Approaching life and music in this way leads to a more fulfilling and life affirming experience.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Expectations can lead to disappointment. One will enjoy music more when it is approached with as little expectation as possible. When one's expectations are not met, it's possible to become upset.

Approaching life and music in this way leads to a more fulfilling and life affirming experience.

Howard, if you were based in California and not in Pennsylvania, you would have your own church instead of a web site (by now Very Happy ). You are a good man well done

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 9:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Somebody else already started a lot of moscs. I'll stick to music. Laughing

Personally, I'm a bit scared of religion.

crucified behead

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

you know it's probably why I have a hard time with a lot of the experimental music. I see you guys as explorers sometimes more than composers. I hope you don't take that as offensive. I think it has a lot of value but it's not what I consider "serious music".
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
you know it's probably why I have a hard time with a lot of the experimental music. I see you guys as explorers sometimes more than composers. I hope you don't take that as offensive. I think it has a lot of value but it's not what I consider "serious music".

I think that in the history of music many composers were considered explorers ahead of their time by contemporaries and only later considered "serious" composers.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
you know it's probably why I have a hard time with a lot of the experimental music. I see you guys as explorers sometimes more than composers. I hope you don't take that as offensive. I think it has a lot of value but it's not what I consider "serious music".


Well, that one is impossible to comment. Cool

If you feel you are missing some kind of story about what the music is before you listen to, I guess there are indeed many stories not yet told re the music found on this site.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
I think experimental music is too oriented towards rebelling against certain things rather than expressing certain things.


This is kind of the whole point with most experimental music. I should add that experimental music can also express emotions, and in many cases it is exactly it achieves the purpose. from my point of iew there is not much experimental music around in the traditional meaning of the term. It might sound experimental, but it isn´t really. The futurists could at times be experimental. One important goal was making noises musical, by educating both the audience and the musicians, and incorporating modernity in music. Around 1900 music was changing but a lot of artists still felt that the grand experiment of modernity hadn´t yet reached music.
Anyway,a lot of the weird noises you hear these days are in fact mature works built upon a tradition. However, I still feel that certain academic circles are still into "exploring" certain directions in noisy music without having grasped the fact that all this has already been formalized and developed into mature forms of expression.


dmosc wrote:
I would so much rather hear a person stand up and explain what you can expect to hear and how it will progress before playing a new inventive style. It would mean that could be supprised by my emotions and sensations rather than the content itself.


We could try just that. Pick whatever you find around here and ask the creator to explain what is going on.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
I would so much rather hear a person stand up and explain what you can expect to hear and how it will progress before playing a new inventive style. It would mean that could be supprised by my emotions and sensations rather than the content itself.


Right on. At electro-music 2005 we are going to ask every performer to explain what they are doing, where they are coming from, how they do it, etc. before every set. Not only does it better educate the audience, but it improves the repore with the artists and makes for a more enjoyable experience for everyone.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dmosc wrote:
I would so much rather hear a person stand up and explain what you can expect to hear and how it will progress before playing a new inventive style. It would mean that could be supprised by my emotions and sensations rather than the content itself.


What if the artist isn't sure what they're about to play? That's not an uncommon scenario.

It's really easy to not be shocked and to simply listen and enjoy something new if you open your mind to the idea that all music is one instead of buying into the divisive nature of genres. Besides, isn't it boring knowing what to expect?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 11:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Or what when the artist doesn't want to comment on the work because the work should speak for itself, which is not an uncommon point of view either.

Jan.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is true. Good point.
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