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Composition: Is theory without technique possible?
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jastro



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject: Composition: Is theory without technique possible? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just came across this forum - looks like a great place with some very knowledgeable people!

I have some prior "formal" education in music, but it's stale enough now to be useless. I'd like to compose electronic music and learn music theory at the same time. However, it seems like most books / classes on music theory require knowledge of one or more instrument, which isn't necessary to work electronically.

Any advice you can offer on how to get started both composing and learning theory would be greatly appreciated.
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Welcome welcome


That was a damned good question.! Electronic music can be whatever these days. Any special direction you would like to explore?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome

I have lot's of training in music theory, including a degree. I think the most important thing is to compose, as often and as much as you can. Don't worry about the theory. Learn theory at your own pace for your own enjoyment. When you are interested in something, go study it by buying a book, taking a course, asking questions on the electro-music.com forum or making up your own theories. Music theory is such a vast subject it can be overwhelming and it can take you away from the music itself. On the other hand, music theory can be a key that opens up deeper understanding, in both listening and composing.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think that´s a excelent question with implications that run far deeper then just finding a decent book, but let´s look at the practical side first; is there any good reason why a book on music theory from the perspective of the piano wouldn´t do for electronic music? Chords, time signatures and so on remain the same regardless of the instrument and so piano would be a nice choice, even if you subdtitute the "piano roll" for the piano.

There are obviously sides to electronic composition not covered by books aimed at acoustic instruments. There are options in electronic and particularly computer music that are far beyond the posibilities of acoustical instruments.

If I were you I´d take a book aimed at the piano for the conventional basics and for the electronic side "roll your own" out of a mixture of technical texts and thought pieces by important composers in the electronic field. If you want a particularly daring one; "Microsound" by Curtis Roads examines the musical and compositional sides of particle- based forms of synthesis. I recomend it if you are interested in exploring new ground in compositional forms previously unavailable.

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7/4



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I think that´s a excelent question with implications that run far deeper then just finding a decent book, but let´s look at the practical side first; is there any good reason why a book on music theory from the perspective of the piano wouldn´t do for electronic music? Chords, time signatures and so on remain the same regardless of the instrument and so piano would be a nice choice, even if you subdtitute the "piano roll" for the piano.


Wouldn't hurt to know the names of the notes! Very Happy
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jastro, can you hear the music you want to make? What does it sound like?
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

7/4 wrote:
Kassen wrote:
I think that´s a excelent question with implications that run far deeper then just finding a decent book, but let´s look at the practical side first; is there any good reason why a book on music theory from the perspective of the piano wouldn´t do for electronic music? Chords, time signatures and so on remain the same regardless of the instrument and so piano would be a nice choice, even if you subdtitute the "piano roll" for the piano.


Wouldn't hurt to know the names of the notes! Very Happy


Doesn´t hoovering your mouse over them help?
:¬PPPPPPPP

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7/4



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
7/4 wrote:
Kassen wrote:
I think that´s a excelent question with implications that run far deeper then just finding a decent book, but let´s look at the practical side first; is there any good reason why a book on music theory from the perspective of the piano wouldn´t do for electronic music? Chords, time signatures and so on remain the same regardless of the instrument and so piano would be a nice choice, even if you subdtitute the "piano roll" for the piano.


Wouldn't hurt to know the names of the notes! Very Happy


Doesn´t hoovering your mouse over them help?
:¬PPPPPPPP


Good point. I've done that on occasion. The trouble is that I learned the notes before I was 8, then a bit of theory in high school. The notes have always had names to me.

How's this: wouldn't hurt to know a scale or two or a chord. flower
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I learned them too, I played the recorder and accordeon for years. Actually I intended my post to encourage learning notes.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It wouldn't hurt to know the notes, but if you write musique concrete, what the hell do you need to know the names of the notes? If you are going to write anything from pop songs to symphonies, then it wouldn't hurt to know them. How deep does one need to get into it though? I submit that virtually everyone who knows a lot of theory also has a lot of theory they don't know. If one uses the concept that you'lll never know everything, then you won't let lack of knowledge stop you.

Often, people who know a lot in a field aren't the ones that make original breakthroughs.

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7/4



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I guess it isn't really important.
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jastro



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thank you everyone for the replies so far.

I suppose the idea of using piano books does make sense. For some reason I thought it would be impediment that they would be discussing instrument-specific technique at the same time, but that can be ignored when not useful.

elektro80 - I have a somewhat vague idea of what I'd like to do with music. I enjoy a lot of the IDM / minimal techno / glitch aesthetic, but I would also like to involve some things I hear and enjoy in other genres, including contemporary and "experimental" (if I'm using the correct terminology) classical. That's why I would like to have a firm grounding in theory, so that I can explore melody, harmony, time signatures, etc, from a more "theoretical" perspective than just one genre.

I'm not sure how much sense I'm making here, but thanks again for the input. While I'm on the topic, I was also wondering whether you all would recommend using a MIDI keyboard controller for input, or is that really only the way to go if you have existing keyboard knowledge? If so, what are the alternatives?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 1:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jastro wrote:
I was also wondering whether you all would recommend using a MIDI keyboard controller for input, or is that really only the way to go if you have existing keyboard knowledge? If so, what are the alternatives?

a keyboard controller is useful if you have a previous knowledge of keyboad technique. those, anyway, are the most common user "interfaces". The alternatives are many even without looking for something exoteric: wind controller, drum controllers, guitar controllers.....

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Seraph is right about that one. A keyboard controller is the closest thing we have at the moment you can call a general purpose input device.
A pretty neat product right now is the M -Audio 88ES thingie that also has some midi controllers etc. It is quite good actually. It is weighted though, and that mightr not be what you want.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
M -Audio 88ES

that one has a semi-weighted keyboard.
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Keystation88es-main.html
the one with assignable controls is the 88Pro
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/KeystationPro88-main.html

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Uh.. ok... I always mix up those product names.. Very Happy

That 88pro is very nice.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The keyboard controllers are very nice, and there are lots to choose from. Even cheap keyboards from Casio and Yamaha that you get in the discount stores have midi out these days. You can pick up used devices like this for very little.

If you use a keyboard, then you almost by necessity end up with music built on tones of a scale. Your music will be made of notes, melodies, chords, etc. That could be good but it can limit creativity. That said. If you aren't already a keyboad player, you don't need a huge keyboard with 88 keys.

When I started in electronic music, I didn't use a keyboard. I got may sounds materials recording things in the environment, like radios tuned between stations, and edited them together by spliceing tape. When you start off that way, it gives you a different perspective.

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Dovdimus Prime



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I find this site:

http://www.outsideshore.com/school/music/almanac/html/toc/index.htm

a great resource for musical theory. It's not relevant to any particular instrument, it's just general theory.

Don't be put off by the jazz thing, it's quite general.

Cheers

Dovder

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Now that we've gotten the basic, practical stuff out of the way, I'd like to share one thought that occured to me when I first saw this post.

Theory may be made easier once not encumbered anymore by practice or technique, but the instrument one picks create certain options and limitations. A Flamengo guitar is very different from a Jazz piano. Not only is the sound different but the main modes for expression differ. THis means that the perspective one has on composition will change depending on what "technique" or instrument one writes at. It may not be a good idea at all to write for violin while sitting at a piano if you want to get the most out of the instrument. Pieces composed on or for a didgerido will sound positively boring on a piano where no real timbral controll in real time is available.

It could then be argued that not only theory but indeed composition might benefit from a lack of limitations placed by a speciffic instrument but I would counter that limitations may well bring focus. Currently "we" are looking at electronic music mostly with the limitations of MIDI in mind which are quite close to the piano's. Well, closer then too the Flamengo guitar. We might instead conciously choose to "adopt" a set of posibilities and limitations from a arbitrary instrument as a compositional guideline. This might not only bring to our attention some limitations once taken for granted (and ways around those inspirered by our instrument of choice!) but also bring out options not previously realised.

Such a choice for a modern electronic composer need not be backed by actual skill at that instrument, far more important (or at least efficient) may be a some knowledge of it's workings and a apreceation for it's expressive qualities.

Thoughts? Experiences? Come out and play.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Good thinking as always.

The synth itself can be many instruments. an interesting feature is that it also can have qualities from other instruments in completely new combinations. It is all down to the patch. This fact opens up new possibilities in the sense that it is possible to extract mannerisms, musical gestures, and ways to play this new instrument that also combines many different traditions... and then some.
Personally I am attracted to using the synth as an orcehstral instrument. What if you throw out all the traditional orchestral instruments.. or keep some.. depending on the music.. and then write a full score for a synthetic ensemble which does not even go close to that "Swicthed on Bach" approach? This is interesting and it allows to write the music first, then invent the patches.. or whatever.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

There's a whole other side (often overlooked) that is just as oblique...the venue within which the music is played. Particularly live music. Playing stuccato in a chruch hall probably doesn't have the same effect as playing slower styles would...which has driven half the theories invovled with classical music. From how reverb trails interact to how harmonics add within chords...and how those harmonics effect the pre- and postcedent notes. I think this end of "theory" appears to be more experience and technique placed within the hands of conductors & the musicians themselves. Any artist involved with installation art can understand this. The performance space has just as many (if not more) implications and limitations on a piece of music.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Music theory can cover all aspects of music. The most basic theory is Harmonic Theory (sometimes just called Harmony) and that was pretty much completely worked out at the time of J. S. Bach. This is what every music major studies in their first two years at university. (These introductory courses are often called Theory and Harmony.) Serious music students learn most of it before they leave high school. Harmonic

Theory is pretty independent of instrument as long as instruments are in the note making category. The theory is based on the harmonic series which is common to almost all insturments, including the didgerido. Sure, traditional Harmonic Thereory focuses mainly on tunings with 12 tones per octave, but it is very powerful. It's sort of the basic grammar of music.

I would think that learning traditional Harmonic Theory would be well worth the time and trouble. It is the basic vocubulary of most but not all music. Most musicians would think another musician was uneducated if they didn't understand the basics of Harmony. (Not me, BTW).

I even heard the great master Carlos Nakai, http://www.rcarlosnakai.com/ , tell people you can't consider mastering the Native American Flute until you studied Theory and Harmony. He tells his perspective students to learn the music of Bach, Mozart and Beethoven before coming to him.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 17, 2005 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think harmonics-wise the Didge has more in common with synthesis methodes usch as pulse train synthesis and FOF synthesis (asuming it´s treated as a "null case" since one of it´s fundamentals is static) then with normal acoustical instruments, realy.

Still thinking about JK´s remark, I´ll adress that later.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i find it helpful to break music/sound into these 6 elements

pitch
duration (time on a small scale)
structure (time on a larger scale)
dynamics (amplitude)
timbre
silence

pitch and duration are the most important elements to learn how to manipulate if you want something to sound like "music".

i find that when teaching pure novices, it is more helpful, in order to learn an understanding of music (as opposed to notation) to let them work in a software package with a good piano roll editer (e.g. fruityloops)

Fruityloops allows you to input individual notes, or chords. if you choose chords, then the vertical axis will teach you all about the relationship of space to pitch that creates harmony.

if you alternate two fixed duration notes, or combine two fixed duration notes in sequence (e.g. 4 squares long and 2 squares long) and compare them to a sequence of notes of the same duration, you learn a lot about rhythm in a very short space of time.

the fact that a package like fruityloops allows you to build a bar at a time before working on an overall structure is a good thing for working on theory.

i have to say i agree with mosc. time spent experimenting and working stuff out for yourself is the best thing you can do.

i know classical musicians who could play Rachmaninov but wouldn't be able to write a decent piece of music in ternary form. and only because they have spent hours practising the piano as opposed to composing.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Stanley Pain wrote:
i know classical musicians who could play Rachmaninov but wouldn't be able to write a decent piece of music in ternary form. and only because they have spent hours practising the piano as opposed to composing.


Yeah, and then there are the kind who can play Rachmaninov and are great composers too. When you run across these types, it's very easy to get discouraged. Don't let the talent of other musicians discourage you, only let it inspire you.

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