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Future of Electro-music, event attendance, cost, etc
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shivasongster



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PostPosted: Sat Nov 07, 2015 10:29 am    Post subject: Future of Electro-music, event attendance, cost, etc
Subject description: Future of Electro-music, event attendance, cost, etc
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Back at EM2015 Howard asked for feedback about how to keep EM going, particularly the events. There was also a discussion about the direction of this electro-music community and how to increase involvement from current members, get new members, and obtain more listeners at live events (if indeed that was the desire).

Part of my feedback involved the state of the web site and user forum. For a community that regularly deals with cutting edge technology in so many other forms, the electro-music website is extremely dated, difficult to use, and I don't think it represents us very well. This feedback was echoed by others at EM2015. I suggested a Word Press front end, with something much more modern and visually enticing. We have so many great photos, graphic designers and photographers in the community that I don't see why this would be difficult to execute.

I would like there to be a more accessible link to the Greenskill event page (several people agree it is buried, which doesn't help attendance). I would like to see more of the great photos people have taken showcased on the site in ways that make the community look great (because it is).

Howard pointed out, rightfully, that it makes no sense to make suggestions of people do not step up top the plate. So I offered to help with a Word Press front end if indeed that was the direction folks wanted to go. I have had some discussion with EdisonRex on this topic.

Moving on to some of the other concerns:

Attendance - After returning from EM2015 I spoke to another artist who was unable to attend and we talked about our collective experiences since 2010. Attendance seems to have dropped off, and the nature of the performances has become more improv-based with many artists taking up multiple slots. We should discuss this. I don't know that I have an opinion either way, but it seems that it can be a bit off-putting to new people attending.

Cost - There are several items here that appear to need discussion:

#1 - Some feel they should not have to pay to play. Speaking for myself, I do not feel this way in this case because I look at EM as a professional conference and much more than an opportunity to perform. Here is one place where a better presentation on the website might help. Look at other similar conferences and learn from them.

#2 - Accommodations - Several people pointed out the price vs return that we get on Greenskill in terms of the environment, meals, etc. Some feel that the rooms and meals are not worth what we're paying. I have been critical of the bathrooms before, particularly in 2014 when they were practically destroyed even before we got there. In 2015 there wasn't much change.

I think the performance space is adequate, though I would personally like to see a smoking ban near stage 2. Here again, we're locked into rules Greenskill sets about where smoking can take place.

Then there is the stream/Internet access problem that we've struggled with since 2010.

#3 - Listener vs performer tickets - Should there be some breakdown for people who come to listen vs the people there for performing/collaborating?

Howard noted that if the EM community could get a grant or donation, they could make the conference free, or much less expensive. Of course, to apply for grants we'd need to be established as a non-profit or in some other way more organized. That takes time, people and some startup money. It doesn't appear there is much will or interest in this right now.

Event Location - The discussion of event location came up for various reasons. Several people noted that Ashville gets much more foot traffic and gives a better experience to performers because they have more of an audience to interact with. Greenskill is so far out of the way that it is impractical as a listening destination. If someone wants to go to a dinner and a show, Greenskill is not a good option.

On one hand I like the retreat nature of Greenskill, but I would not be opposed to a relocation. I am spoiled at the moment because Greenskill is still only 2 hrs from me. Should the event change, I would probably still go if it was within 4 hrs driving. I have not flown to any events yet, mostly because of equipment and scheduling issues.

Moving on...

Community - There has been some discussion about what type of community we want to have. Speaking only from the experience of EM2010-2015 and Dale's Kutztown event, I see this group as overall very welcoming, highly inspirational and a wonderful resource. But I am already part of the community.

From the outside it can look a bit insular, and though I did not feel that way in 2010, I can see how some folks might feel that way. Here again, how the website represents the community could be part of the problem.

Do we, as Andrew Koenig suggests, approach electronic music as the folk music of today and try to encourage more involvement of the younger generation? Have we really saturated the market for people to get involved, or are we missing something? Or do we prefer to keep things more closely held?

I'm not sure I have answers to any of these questions. All I can do is relate my own experience, and that of people I have tried to turn on to EM events. I sometimes wonder if I should even try too recruit new members, and maybe that isn't my job. It has been difficult to do so because when I tell them I am driving 2 hrs, paying $300+ to play for 30 min - I sometimes get weird looks. I personally get more out of the workshops, artist interactions and listening. So everyone has to decide for themselves. Perhaps all we can do is be upfront about these things and make it 100% clear why you would attend. And maybe folks that don't understand how this niche works, and how a volunteer group operates, will just never get it.

Though I am posting this here, I dislike the forums - I would much prefer a mechanism that could interact with me via email so I didn't have to log in to this separate interface. Even FB is better than the current method. So if you comment on this post and I don't immediately respond, that is why. I hope this helps with the brainstorming and future execution of things that will help the community.

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blue hell
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

From the chat

Quote:
11-08 22:13 Blue_Hell anyway ... did you guys read :: http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-65349.html :: ?
11-08 22:16 wofl i dont know what that means
11-08 22:16 JovianPyx reading the first few paragraphs ... not sure I agree - difficult to use?
11-08 22:17 JovianPyx I personally like the way the website works.
11-08 22:17 JovianPyx heh - the only complaint is the search engine sucks, but Google works so I don't care.
11-08 22:17 Fenris !hello
11-08 22:17 Borislav Fenris says hello to Jan, wofl, Scott!
11-08 22:18 JovianPyx hi Fenny
11-08 22:18 Blue_Hell hi fenn
11-08 22:18 Fenris hello gentlemen:)
11-08 22:18 JovianPyx looks both ways with a ? on his face
11-08 22:18 wofl hey Fenris
11-08 22:19 Fenris hi wofl and jov lol
11-08 22:19 Fenris https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06ht9MyJLT4 <get>| robsol (~chatzilla@05475c2c.skybroadband.com) has joined #electro
11-08 22:23 Fenris any hoo whats happening tonight?
11-08 22:23 Fenris hi rob
11-08 22:23 robsol hello fen
11-08 22:23 Blue_Hell no happenings I hope .. anted to go sleep early
11-08 22:23 Blue_Hell hi Rob
11-08 22:23 robsol tonight, somebody goes to bed without supper
11-08 22:23 robsol hi jan
11-08 22:24 robsol tonight, somebody drives home in their friend's car
11-08 22:24 JovianPyx hi Rob
11-08 22:24 Fenris ooh
11-08 22:24 robsol hi scott
11-08 22:24 sonic re: that post Jan, I can't comment on the EM event, but afaics the forum works quite well as it is
11-08 22:24 robsol tonight, an extra can of beer will be consumed
11-08 22:24 Fenris gasps
11-08 22:25 Blue_Hell yeah .. ok .. the forum has been more lively in the past tho
11-08 22:25 sonic i guess most people here are more concerned with content than how fancy it looks
11-08 22:25 robsol forum is a mess i think
11-08 22:25 robsol but i like it
11-08 22:25 Blue_Hell heh
11-08 22:25 sonic heh heh
11-08 22:25 Blue_Hell you read that post by Jeremy Rob?
11-08 22:26 robsol yes i scanned through it
11-08 22:26 JovianPyx maybe it's because I'm an old fart, but I couldn't think of a better way to do it myself.
11-08 22:26 sonic i find it hard to keep up to date with new posts which may be of interest admittedly
11-08 22:26 JovianPyx it's clear and functional
11-08 22:26 sonic but then it's up to me to look of course!
11-08 22:26 JovianPyx I've also been a lazy bastage
11-08 22:26 robsol i don't think you can change something like this to fit in more people...
11-08 22:26 JovianPyx but not thinking of new shit doesn't help me either
11-08 22:27 robsol i look at other fora, like the new kyma forum and i'm not sure that works any better
11-08 22:28 Blue_Hell kyma has a new one?
11-08 22:28 robsol there seems to be a specific way of thinking that tunnels the conversation a lot
11-08 22:28 sonic maybe if i used an rss reader...
11-08 22:28 robsol jan: http://kyma.symbolicsound.com/qa/
11-08 22:29 JovianPyx same here, I've had to use all kinds of corp. fora. Not better, just a little different
11-08 22:29 Blue_Hell Q&A
11-08 22:29 robsol yeah
11-08 22:29 sonic i guess for some things a flat list of posts can be a bit clunky
11-08 22:29 robsol i'm easy though, i go with the change as it happens
11-08 22:29 sonic for example if a thread is made by someone who has made a cool bit of code
11-08 22:29 JovianPyx I fight the change every step of the way
11-08 22:30 Blue_Hell interesting they try to make it Q&A oriented
11-08 22:30 robsol heheh
11-08 22:30 wofl I DONT GET IT
11-08 22:30 robsol sybolic sound hates having their dirty laundry aired in public
11-08 22:30 robsol ie bug reports
11-08 22:30 Blue_Hell heh, yeah
11-08 22:31 wofl oops
11-08 22:31 wofl caps
11-08 22:31 wofl sorry
11-08 22:31 JovianPyx Tom: this website and it's functions used to be a lot more active
11-08 22:31 Blue_Hell what dont you get Tom?
11-08 22:31 wofl its a forum
11-08 22:31 wofl what else would it look like
11-08 22:32 JovianPyx more, uh, like "modern", like "cool n' shit", etc.
11-08 22:32 sonic heh heh
11-08 22:32 JovianPyx it's FUNCTIONAL. It's IMO easy to use.
11-08 22:32 wofl so basically the same but slower to load everything
11-08 22:32 robsol to attract more young idiots
11-08 22:32 sonic we should build a new one all in flash
11-08 22:32 JovianPyx basically that would be correct
11-08 22:33 Blue_Hell yeah well .. what I thought .. people seem to have moved to 'social media'
11-08 22:33 JovianPyx heh @what ROb said
11-08 22:33 sonic lets move it to facebook
11-08 22:33 robsol that's not a problem then... make a fuzzbook page
11-08 22:33 Blue_Hell there is some electro-music.com facbook stuff
11-08 22:34 robsol facebook is from the devil
11-08 22:34 Blue_Hell but dunno if that works .... I dont use facbook
11-08 22:34 sonic it's from the devil's anus
11-08 22:34 JovianPyx I don't want my computer touching that dirty website
11-08 22:34 wofl devils too cool for fb
11-08 22:34 sonic good point
11-08 22:34 wofl fb is from purgatory
11-08 22:35 JovianPyx I have it in my hosts file to point to 127.0.0.1
11-08 22:35 sonic i can't stand that zuckerberg kid
11-08 22:35 JovianPyx he made billions having other people get into pissing matches
11-08 22:36 Blue_Hell pissing on matches, great
11-08 22:36 wofl need a lighter
11-08 22:36 robsol anyway if it's time for a change i'm happy to oblige
11-08 22:36 wofl someone pissed on my matches
11-08 22:36 sonic heh heh
11-08 22:37 robsol they were pissing matches so i'm not surprised
11-08 22:37 Blue_Hell robsol: that was my thought too
11-08 22:37 Blue_Hell still .. some discussion about where to move mught be good
11-08 22:37 Blue_Hell might
11-08 22:38 sonic i guess the main sitey-bit could be spruced up if some folks are willing to put the time in
11-08 22:38 JovianPyx Ed: I was pissed off at my matches because they wouldn't light. Fred: That's why.
11-08 22:38 sonic wordpress is ok
11-08 22:39 Blue_Hell wordpress ... thats a more blog like interface?
11-08 22:39 JovianPyx more shit to crate an account and either use a simple password, or have a list, or go insane.
11-08 22:39 sonic it is designed for blog originally
11-08 22:39 sonic but now used as general CMS all over the place
11-08 22:39 Blue_Hell ok
11-08 22:40 sonic bloggy could be good i guess tho
11-08 22:40 sonic easier to keep ticking over
11-08 22:40 Blue_Hell for some stuff, yes
11-08 22:41 Blue_Hell like that software thing you meantioned before
11-08 22:41 Blue_Hell but the discussion bits I see following a blog post .. dunno
11-08 22:41 sonic what software thing?
11-08 22:42 sonic matrixsynth i always find enjoyable & entertaining
11-08 22:42 Blue_Hell hmm
11-08 22:42 robsol different format though
11-08 22:42 Blue_Hell but thats author driven, no?
11-08 22:42 robsol a diy only blog like matrixsynth would be nice
11-08 22:42 robsol yes one author
11-08 22:43 robsol or maybe two
11-08 22:43 Blue_Hell that would surely piss off some folks
11-08 22:43 sonic everything will piss off some folks!
11-08 22:43 JovianPyx can't use them matches
11-08 22:43 robsol lol
11-08 22:43 Blue_Hell heh, ok
11-08 22:44 robsol pissing off match
11-08 22:44 sonic there are some fantastic things in the forums with images, which surely would look great on the front of the site to showcase what is happening in the community
11-08 22:44 Blue_Hell I'm going to reply this chat discussion to Jeremy's post
11-08 22:44 robsol o shit
11-08 22:45 JovianPyx gulps
11-08 22:45 robsol i better start saying something fucking useful
11-08 22:45 sonic then lazy bastages like me wouldn't have to go hunting for them heh heh
11-08 22:45 JovianPyx why didn't I change my nick to some umold thing
11-08 22:45 sonic scrolls up to look at his comments

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also .. could someone please turn down the thermostat a bit.
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't think there was much consensus about anything at the brief electro-music 2015 discussion. I am glad that Jeremy brought up the discussion, because Howard opened the discussion at the event, but it just sort of HUNG there.

There was substantial talk about the venue. I slept in my van and brought food because this is the first time my university wouldn't pay in about 3 years, and the food and lodging is over-priced for what it is. (The school came up with the money after. Smile ) The van was much more comfy. I did wake Banjo Dave up in his camper at 3 AM by accidentally unlocking the door without the key, after locking with the key, when I had to pee. Oops! THE HORN WAS LOUD!

I like the woods, but there's not much time to spend in them. Folks who grew into EM events at Huguenot seem more attached to it. I used to like Cheltenham, you'd get a good variety of musicians from Philly and NYC and thereabouts. I can't say it's becoming inbred, and ZIM is certainly still growing in complexity.

The discussion about bringing in the young people is ironic to me, in that I work with a lot of young people, including some pretty decent student musicians who have graced the planetarium seminars and the June conference, but most of them have many other interests and priorities. Most of them are just not that passionate about the thing.

Andrew Splendorio and I had a chat about that later. He is young, and basically it seemed like he and I had a similar perspective. When it's fun, do it, but don't be attached. It's all an interesting universe.

I feel like there was an undercurrent maybe of Howard and Greg wanting to pass on the the mantle. I wouldn't blame either one. Greg's got Asheville, and NY is a long haul and a lot of work for him & Hong.

I don't know that there has to be a successor event per se. Things grow, blossom, drop seeds, whither, and the seeds sprout up. We who have attended those events have gotten a lot out of them, and we can use that to go on & do other things.

That is partly why I did the Kutztown Conference this past June, and hope to make it a biannual. (And thanks for the setup help, Jeremy.) My job is far too busy to do *that* during a semester. My wife estimates 80 hours per week in my job; I'd say maybe 70; I like to do good work. Plus I have to alternate outward-facing events with inward-facing events. There will be an inward-facing event the evening of March 19, 2016, with faculty & students from Fine Arts, Communication Design, Physical Sciences, Music & Computer Science, free & open to public attendance. I just got grant funding to bring Steve & Jaymie from Project Ruori to be our guest speakers & performers. So there is another, different outgrowth from the EM events.

The FORUM

I love this Forum. If I weren't so busy, I'd feel guilty about not contributing much beyond performing in the seasonal webcasts, which remain very important to me. I use FB to keep in contact with electro-musicians and visual artists who don't use this forum, but I hate its extremely short term memory, same for email. The most useful forum threads for me have been long discussions about things like Minimalism and other things, and ESPECIALLY the Glass Bead Game that grew into a collaborative software instrument to which many of us contributed. Where did that go? Well, Kassen left (I think due to an argument), James "Dew Drop World" mostly left; I see them on FB; but there will never be a FB thread like that thread. The ZIM threads here are still in that spirit. I use forums and face-to-face online classes and other similar techniques with my remote students that I learned doing webcasts and threads here.

The regulars here who also attend EM events post their music on their regular threads, but I believe I am the only EM2015-only musician (i.e., with no home thread here; the threadless thread) to bother posting. I'll get to my thoughts on "why" in a moment. SMokris posts his excellent videos on Vimeo and puts the links here. That definitely counts as posting here, so I guess that's two of us.

Back on September 28 when I posted on the em2015 thread
Acoustic Interloper wrote:
Blue Hell wrote:
Tardis and especially SimpleGifts, very nice Smile

Thanks, again. Very Happy

I would like to see more of the performers post their sets here. FB posts of pics for the event get a lot of likes, but not very much sustaining activity on the forum. I use FB where it's useful, but attention span there is extremely short.

Steps down off of soapbox . . .

Take care, Jan.

jan replied
Blue Hell wrote:
Yes, it would be nice to see some more Exclamation

and Jez replied
modulator_esp wrote:
I think more people will post stuff once the recordings are sorted out


Let me add that, in addition to "FB posts of pics for the event get a lot of likes, but not very much sustaining activity on the forum.", it is also true that "FB posts of pics for the event get a lot of likes, but not many hits on recordings I post there." I assume that's true for others. FB absolutely sucks for sharing experimental music. Everybody loves the pics, but nobody, seemingly, gives a shit about the music. At least that's my impression.

Attention span is wandering and shortening. Sad? I guess so. I'm an old man, I saw the sixties spirit whither and fade, and any recollection of it is met with cynicism by those who knew nothing of it. And, of course, much of it was mixed up with fad. U.S. is very fad driven. I imagine much of the tech-savvy world is.

Unless somebody wants to step up to the plate and volunteer to do a bunch of work, I don't see the point of talking much about changes. Just the lack of advertisements in my face make me happy about the forum. Putting together the Kutztown University Computer Music & Visualization Conference every two years is "bunch of work" enough for me.

So, if I were Pablo Picasso or Salvador Dali or Miles Davis or whomever, would I care about organizations & get-togethers, etc.? I reckon not. I know I am not in that talent range, but so what? The question is more, what I am I passionate about? Events? Music! I can make music on my back porch and be happy.

What drove André Breton or Gertrude Stein to organize their circles? How coherent were those circles? I don't know. It all seems to phase in & out. It's fine. Things phase in & out.

Anyway, my wife says the heat pump sounds funny, I gotta to go check. Sound. I got a nub of a thought about quantum tunneling in ZIM and its relation to why analog may have a surface that digital can never touch, and this from a computer scientist, and I got a new laser projector in the planetarium that I need to learn to program. But, now, I gotta go listen to the heat pump.

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shivasongster



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Followup Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the various perspectives, and to Dale for his lengthy response.

It became very clear, when this was discussed at EM2015 (as briefly as it was), that many people love the forum. I'm not suggesting that the forum be changed. I doubt it could be, without significant modernization in code and format that I do not have the expertise to even begin to imagine.

However - and this is certainly a culture thing, maybe an age thing - there is a whole world of interaction besides these types of forums. Even when I found electro-music.com in 2010, I thought it was a bit quaint. Looks like a BBS I joined in the early 90s when I had my first 386. This isn't a slight to the designers of this community, or the subsequent success and connections that have been established. I'm just saying the world has changed - considerably. Do we want to change with it? Maybe we do, maybe not.

But as I said, my concern wasn't so much with changing the forum, but putting a better front end on the web presence of the organization. The pages that currently reside at electro-music.com are dated, need navigation help, and the event page is still buried - seemingly only accessible to "people in the know". That doesn't make for an inclusive climate. Every community has its cliques I guess, and my personal experience has been that this community has less of that. But it's hard to prove that to someone new, possibly younger, who is just starting out.

I am still in discussion with EdisonRex about possibly helping with a WordPress front end. WP is not just a blog format. It is used in numerous industries as a Content Management System and it can be very effective at addressing some of the issues we have on the current site. It is responsive for mobile - a big factor the current EM site doesn't address.

Is WP the only option? Probably not. There's Joolma and a few even more modern platforms, each with pros and cons. I was simply offering to help where my expertise is strongest. If no one wants to explore WP, that's fine.

And perhaps I need to step down from evangelizing about EM to the extent that I do. I think that is where I've sort of made things difficult for myself. If I oversell the experience of attending EM events, or the awesome friendships that I have uncovered here, and someone else doesn't have the same experience... well, that is partially on them, not me. You get out of it what you put in. But to the extent that there are things that one can control (the website, event location, how events are run) there may be things we can do to make things better if we so choose.

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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Followup Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi Jeremy.
shivasongster wrote:

I am still in discussion with EdisonRex about possibly helping with a WordPress front end. WP is not just a blog format. It is used in numerous industries as a Content Management System and it can be very effective at addressing some of the issues we have on the current site. It is responsive for mobile - a big factor the current EM site doesn't address.

I am in need of a way of having faculty + student research collaborators across the disciplines at a single university (ours) to post about their research projects. In my mind it would be tree-structured by discipline, but with the ability to cross-link, for example between my computer science projects and Phill Reed's astronomy & physics projects. Is WP a good match for that? I know we have scholarship students blogging on WP, but I haven't dug into it.

What is the funding model for WP?

Is it something you could link off the current electro-music site? I guess you could link off the front page.
Quote:

And perhaps I need to step down from evangelizing about EM to the extent that I do.

To get back a bit to my students, I have had students do killer musical performances in planetarium events. But only one of them, my son Jeremy, has been to Huguenot, and that was for 1 day to play in ZIM as the capstone project for an independent study. He did run sound at Kingsport for the full event in the B room, with my assistance. But, despite the fact that he plays some excellent processed guitar in our basement when he comes for a weekly visit, he has no strong interest in going back to EM. He always has many other things to do. He and I used to kayak in floods a lot 10+ years ago, but this year we got out only once, and that on a lake. Busy life & change in priorities.

My students have no interest, even though I am sure we could get grant money to cover their costs. If EM were closer to Kutztown, I could get them to go. Of course my solution has been to create KU-mini-EM to the extent that I have time to do it. I have very good relations with the more progressive visual arts folks, and am teaching a Creative Graphical Coding course that I designed last year that will be required of all students in their new Digital Arts tracks. But KU's Music dept. could not care less about electronic or computer music. So, despite the fact that I have had students do very nice work with processed music, there is zero interest in traveling to EM. I don't try to proselytize. I am of course glad for an opportunity to get a break from them, although I would be thrilled if any of them had an interest.

I tend to branch out into other, related activities. One of these years the intra-KU planetarium event will include distributed ZIM with invited remote players from electro-music.com. It's on my to-do list, just haven't found the right year.

One other thing that's interesting about working with students: They leave after a few years. It keeps one unattached to repeating past successes.

Next KUCMVC will be very experimental, by the way, in terms of DIY and activities to be determined. Probably *that's* the event for networked ZIM. Cool

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 3:48 pm    Post subject: WP thoughts Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Dale,

I will f/u via email regarding possible WP stuff for your needs. Essentially there are two models:

1. Wordpress.org - You download the code, host it yourself, install the template (possibly free). Or you can purchase premium themes, or code them from scratch.

2. Wordpress.com - They do the hosting. There is a free option (with some ads, limitations) or a paid option (no ads, lots more options.)

I have done both. For EM purposes, I would be recommending #1 with default theme to start, but moving to a preferably free theme with lots of functionality (and there are many options here). Since EM already has the servers, then I am guessing this would be feasible and we would not need someone else to host. And yes, you could like to the forum as needed. But the idea would be the current front end of electro-music would change - quite drastically.

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Jack_Hertz



Joined: May 14, 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Honestly. Do the math, the site content is going on 1-2 decades old. Its just not serving people's needs anymore. Times have changed and I don't mean to sound harsh, but most EM events I play at these days are local, low-brow, and I get paid. Considering, I would have to spend about $1000 and take a week off work to attend E-M Fest, its a hard sell. And Even then, having to take mass transit from the air port out to the boonies is always the final straw for me.

If you want more people here you have to focus to what more people want. Things like analog modulars, production software, and boutique gear that gets attention. Readers are pretty smart, and they won't be passionate about site if the staff is not passionate about the site. Which if you look around, foums like GearSlutz and Muffwiggler are quite popular for these reasons.

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Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cheap fabric, and dim lighting. That's how you move merchandise.
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rdorsche



Joined: Jan 23, 2010
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Location: Syracuse, NY, USA
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Three brief thoughts (aside from "wow, you guys don't get the TL;DR concept") Smile

1) Regarding attendance: the same weekend as EM2015: there was a Steve Roach show in Philly. a great number of the usual suspects from EM were at that show, thus the dropoff in attendance. A conflict in scheduling and interests, period. Granted, it's lower *overall* attendance by averages, but still, there were 20+ people not in attendance due to that one event.

2) Yes costs are a bit prohibitive for the return. But I chalk that up to necessity. Where else am I going to get this immersive event, and at what cost? Could you imagine how high the costs would be if it where in NYC or some other major city? I did the Asheville EM2015, and in reality it wasn't any cheaper. Cost of hotels and travel proved that point. End game: the costs are what they are. Hopefully one of us will own a venue someday and host the event year-round. Until then? Get the most bang for your buck and jump in 100% at these events.

3) I also did the Kutztown planetarium show this year. That was awesome: housed in a dorm room, and everything's right there on campus. I firmly believe the best option is to move EM to a collegiate environment, AND during the summer months when professional folks are more able to attend. PLUS you'll get family-aged folks able to attend, and with kids to boot. You can't get many kids aged 8-22 to attend due to school.

There's my 2 cents, adjusted for inflation.
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rdorsche



Joined: Jan 23, 2010
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Location: Syracuse, NY, USA
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

P.S.
All forums drive me nuts; "modern" or not.
If it works, then fine.
If I can post, great.
If I can search, even better.

Other than that, I could care less if it's all ACSII or HTML5.
Wordpress is nifty.
It doesn't matter in the end about format though.
JUST as long as it works, AND has the ability to upload media content (mp3, images, etc)

Stepping-up-wise, I'm about six months away from being able to participate at the level of radio show dj and/or graphic deisng. But until then unfortunately I can't participate. Pencil in my name though.
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NEOREV



Joined: Jun 27, 2008
Posts: 210
Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

A complaint I heard from quite a few folks in attendance was that the performances were way too quiet and even purposely being kept low seemed to be a big turn off. Like you said, performers and audience travel far and pay a lot to make it out to Huguenot for the event only to experience something similar to "playing an IPod on a computer speaker" or "better off listening with headphones." That was the biggest complaint I heard.

I know another live electronic music community based in New York called Warper Party that do monthly events are looking to do something similar to EM Festival. I always thought it would be great if the two like-minded communities joined together for an event to help freshen things up and get a bigger draw and possibly lessen the costs and strain on one community. Warper Party even got some love from Ableton and got their compilation promoted on official blogs. A possible step toward sponsors. This idea was met with some great resistance when I brought it up to some EM folks, which felt more like a death grip than looking to evolve and expand.

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audiodef



Joined: Sep 05, 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Lots of great comments here. I'm happy with the forums as is, but would be equally happy if some overhaul were done. All the regulars are good people, and that makes it work. Smile

Here's my contribution:

I have been hosting the Acid Trash (1:11) web site for a while now. I have an OVH dedicated server with a 2 TB RAID drive (so, 1 TB storage, most of which is still unused). Uptime has been very reliable and Jeremiah and PHOBoS seem happy with it. If we're looking to save a buck for the site, I would be happy to host it at no charge. Admins would all get root-level access and any PHP config options, etc., can be easily accommodated. If storage needs grow, it's not too expensive: https://www.ovh.com/us/cloud/storage/

We just moved to a house on 5 acres. I don't know that I could offer the ginormous lawn area as a venue, as I'd have to discuss it with my SO, but if I could, it would have to be a mostly tented venue, with a few things in my rather small project studio. I don't know what the accommodations are around here, other than motels/hotels in nearby Charles Town, but there are good places to eat. It's a lot to think about, but if expected attendance isn't super-crazy, and it's OK with Jen and her mom, it might be fun.

Anyway, if I can help with something the admins decide to do, I'd be happy to.

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shivasongster



Joined: Jul 23, 2010
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Location: Norristown, PA
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 2:54 pm    Post subject: @Neorev's comment regarding sponsors Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I first attended in 2010, I came away thinking "why aren't the vendors here?" but it took me a few years of exposure to the group to see there doesn't appear to be interest in that level of sponsorship or involvement. Maybe it's because it turns into a trade show - more about gear and less about playing. I don't know. While it would be cool to have Ableton involved - given the investment we all have in their gear and software, I think we learn just as much from the community itself.

Neorev brings up another good point - there are probably *several* other communities having events and doing things, sometimes a little bit differently. And while combining cultures - even for one event - can be a challenge, maybe it is worth looking into.

All of these various insights come back to central questions that Howard posed regarding the direction of the community, the events, and - because it is the center of activity - the site.

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Acoustic Interloper



Joined: Jul 07, 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

rdorsche wrote:

3) I also did the Kutztown planetarium show this year. That was awesome: housed in a dorm room, and everything's right there on campus. I firmly believe the best option is to move EM to a collegiate environment, AND during the summer months when professional folks are more able to attend. PLUS you'll get family-aged folks able to attend, and with kids to boot. You can't get many kids aged 8-22 to attend due to school.

There's my 2 cents, adjusted for inflation.

The 8-22 age thing is an interesting question. It piques my interest because one of my colleagues in our department asked me about co-hosting a kids' computing camp specifically in computer music next summer. I begged off the summer because I promised my wife that next summer would be held for travel we have been deferring for years. During the semesters she is a "job widow", and last summer I had a mandatory 6-week on line course at the same time as the conference prep & conference, and funded research the rest of the summer. Next summer is couple time (+ programming the new laser projector Twisted Evil ).

It is feasible that next time we do KUCMVC, my comp. sci. colleague and I would do a camp with middle school kids during the preceding week, and let them open the weekend by demonstrating their work. We'd get lots of parents. I doubt that any of them would stick around for the weekend part.

We had two KU students and two alumni at this summer's KUCMVC. I doubt that will go much higher. They don't want to drive back to Kutztown during the summer, no matter how good they are at music. Most have jobs or internships, and this is not at the top of their lists. I can fill the place with college students, their friends & family during the semester, and those events are free & open to public, but I can't do a KUCMVC-like thing during the semester. My head would fall off, too busy, also no cheap dorm rooms. Even if I can't get a grant for free rooms, the rooms are available & cheap in the summer.

Part of the point is that there is life in addition to electro-music-classic.

I had one complaint about attendance at KUCMVC 2015, but I think the complaintant missed the point. I saw it as a workshop in learning how to use the planetarium for an EM-like event, not something to draw a crowd. I tend to see EM that way.

Next KU event will be more experimental-DIY in some ways yet to be determined. That is the only way I have to draw more faculty into it. March 19, 2016 I have performances, talks and installations lined up from a Fine Arts professor (video art), a Communications Design prof and course collaborator (something visual), a Physics prof and students (4 Tesla coils wired to a MIDI-driven pitch filter -- I don't yet understand how they plan to filter the pitch -- first demo on Dec, 4), an astronomy prof (Phill), a temp Music prof /alumnus, myself, and some collection of our students.

If electro-music-classic ever fades out, it'll free up my time to do other things. The timing at start of semester is rough for me. Honestly, I feel that some of my best work has been webcasts here. But I do find EM attendance worth the work scheduling bubble it causes me.

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NEOREV



Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: @Neorev's comment regarding sponsors Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shivasongster wrote:
Neorev brings up another good point - there are probably *several* other communities having events and doing things, sometimes a little bit differently. And while combining cultures - even for one event - can be a challenge, maybe it is worth looking into.


I'm friends with the two folks that run Warper Party. So if you guys ever needed an introduction, even if it's just to BS and chat about things, I'll gladly help you guys connect. But they're all about live performance and original electronic music. They especially love folks that create their own DIY controllers. It was nice to see an electronic music event in NYC that was diverse and not like a typical one dimensional rave. I a saw guy rock out electronic music with a saxophone. I think both communities would compliment each other quite well. They were recently discussing about looking for a place to host a bigger event at. Another member from EM mentioned how we do EM Fest upstate at Greenkill. They mentioned finding a possible venue in the Rockaways. One of the folks that run Warper was very interested in attending and possibly playing EM2016 when I told him about what we do.

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AncientByrdland



Joined: Dec 31, 2008
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Location: Spring Hill, Florida

PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 6:24 pm    Post subject: Future of Electro-music
Subject description: Howard speaks with the tribe!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_ynZoH9un0
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Acoustic Interloper



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PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2015 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Future of Electro-music
Subject description: Howard speaks with the tribe!
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AncientByrdland wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_ynZoH9un0

Thanks for posting! Smile

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NEOREV



Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think forum design/look-wise is more down to color choice, fonts, and tightening the layout... getting rid of outdated threads and help the important ones from being buried. A nice header and new logo can help freshen things.

Here are some forum examples...

An Italian-based fan site for electronic group The Prodigy that's considered the go to for info about the band. It's even been credited in their official autobiography.
http://www.brainkiller.it/forum/

Here's a popular NIN fan site...
http://www.echoingthesound.org/community/

Or the official NIN forums for something a little more modern...
http://forum.nin.com/bb/forums.html

Or the official Chemical Brothers forum...
http://forum.thechembase.com/forums.html

Vintage Synth...
http://www.vintagesynth.com/forum/

Ableton forums...
https://forum.ableton.com/forums.html?sid=4b52b6fc8e3414d41b9bca859cc7371e

KVR Audio forums...
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/

Hopefully seeing some examples may inspire someone and help with color balance and font style, etc.

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NEOREV



Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA

PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Also, has anyone thought about having our recorded radio shows and performances be used as podcasts on iTunes? Create an Electro-Music podcast/station on iTunes.

I was part of a music producer community called Music Playground who did just that. We were able to submit our own podcasts and have it not only streamable on our site like EM radio does, but also send that iTunes for streaming.

More info:
http://www.apple.com/itunes/podcasts/creatorfaq.html

Just another way to expand.

We have our annual Electro-Music compilation CDs... why not Bandcamp as well? Help get more music out to people.

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NEOREV



Joined: Jun 27, 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 11, 2015 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh, and another idea... I was watching that vid with Howard discussing what to do with Electro-Music at EM2015 and he asked "What do we have that we can pass on to younger people or help entice people to join us?" Not in those exact words. But it made me think of something.

My friend/fellow producer Dan a.k.a. kid_sputnik or daniel bytes or whatever you know him as. He performed a bunch of times on State Machine's radio show.

Anyway, he's really big into programming and was huge on the Native Instruments board. He's especially crazy with Reaktor and some of his work is actually included in the user generated content. He got so well known, he became an admin and a BETA tester. Sorry, I can't remember exactly what he created. But we were at a show in NYC and we got to see this performer from Australia named C-Trix. We had a chance to BS with him after his set. Of course, we got into music, gear, software, etc. C-Trix named some stuff he was working on and Dan had mentioned something he programmed for NI and Reaktor. C-Trix got all excited and was like "You made that? Are you serious? I use that all of the time! I can't believe I just ran into you. You have no idea how much what you made has affected my work." Here's this musician all the way from Australia that happened to work with a bit of software Dan had created.

So that got me thinking about Electro-Music. We have so many people here who have created or help create something musical, whether that be hardware or software. We have engineers amongst us. For example, I know Bill aka State Machine has been involved with musical projects and using his expertise in his field to help create boards for gear.

And that made me think about what Howard said, "What do we have to offer?"

I thought why not create a section of the site for the gifted folks here on EM who have created or help create a piece of hardware or software to have a page to help list the things they have helped create. How did that board you create be used? What gear benefited from your work?

Create a section that shows what members here do have to offer. Make it easy to find that info. Make easy for someone new to help pick that person's brain. Make the site more interactive, especially for folks that want to learn. Help get those braincells working and cook up new ideas.

Just an idea I had when I heard Howard's words.

There are plenty here on EM that have something to offer... that have knowledge and experience. Let's use that. Show what members here have done to push things further musically as well as with technology.

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StephenKilgour



Joined: Nov 22, 2015
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Location: New Zealand

PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've skim read a whole heap of this and I might be able to offer a few suggestions...

I noticed that people weren't too fond of using Facebook and Twitter (I think?). Social networking is incredibly powerful for exposure and stuff.

Try your luck with known electronic musicians in terms of sharing events with their followers.

Perhaps give the forum a visual update? Looks are everything in the music industry...

You could always look for sponsors for live events and/or concerts? Perhaps offer a percentage return for ticket sales

Invest in or purchase a venue and then lease it out to other organisations wanting to run their own events.

Just some thoughts, some of which have probably already been mentioned.

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modulator_esp
Stream Operator


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

my thoughts...

website

I like the forums, but agree that a more modern front end would be a good thing, ideally something that is easy to add news to. It would be good to make the event page more prominent and to add videos/galleries from past events. Some way of integrating this front end in Facebook and other social media would also be good.

community

I think the electro-music community is great, but I always thought it was strange that it seems to be divided into several different groups, some who just attend events, some who do radio stuff, some who just post on the forums and some who mostly frequent chat.

I'd like to see people getting more involved in more of these groups, as I feel the cross-fertilisation would be good

radio

I love the radio events and am quite sad that I've not been able to participate in them so much of late as I seem to doing more gigs out in the real world. It would be nice to get the radio performers interested in the festival and vice versa, maybe we could even integrate remote performers somehow.

event location

I've only attended the event since 2009 so have aonly been to Star Lake and Greenkill, of the two I think Greenkill is nicer and has better facilities in the venue itself.

I particularly like the fact that I can get to Port Jervis by public transport, so I don't need to drive anywhere.

I'm not opposed to it being in a different location, but I (and some others) wouldn't be able to attend unless it was fairly easilly accessible via public transport.

accommodation/food

I would agree that the cost of food accommodation at Greenkil is probably a bit high for what you get, which is pretty basic, but it does make it easy for me to just turn up

event cost

I don't mind paying to attend the event in its current format, which is more of a conference, as there is no audience to subsidise event costs to allow performers to not have to pay or even get paid

event streaming

I find it incredible that it is still so hard to get the stream setup every year

event sound

I have noticed that the organisers don't really like the concerts to be that loud and wondered why this was

I also missed the feed from the radio to the foyer this year, as it's nice to be able to hear the performance when schmoozing in the foyer

Speaking of schmoozing, I think the social aspect of the event is one of the 2 main reasons I attend, the other being the collaborations, in fact the collaborations are probably may favourite part of attending

attracting public to a performance/ advertising

I'm not sure that Greenkill is a good place to attract a paying audience, and think that electro-music is possibly a bit to eclectic to attract your average concert goer who is more likely to want to go and see set of bands in a fairly narrow genre.

However, if you wanted to get a paying audience it might be worth seeing if we could get a well known name to perform, e.g. someone like Robert Rich or Steve Roach

I also think we all have to take some responsibility for advertising the event to as wide an audience as possible, in as honest a way as possible, as only a very small number of those will see its appeal

attracting new people

I think electro-music is a weird and wonderful assemblage of mostly odd musicians, we are all quite different in our approaches to the music we make and the equipment we use to make it.

It would be good to try and liaise with other forums, in many ways I think we are mainly a bunch of music gear geeks, so Muff Wiggler might be a good place to start, as there are lots of gear manufacturers there who might be interested in showing their wares and this might attract new/young people interested in gear and techniques

what do we have to offer

I think electro-music has provided me with the following:
1. a place to do a fortnightly live performances to try out new ideas
2. a forum to learn about gear and techniques
3. an event to meet and collaborate with interesting musicians
4. a community of like-minded weirdos Smile

I'll keep coming as long as I am able to and will try to do more to help promote the next one

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StephenKilgour



Joined: Nov 22, 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had another thought about the radio today, has anyone considered creating a radio channel for mainstream/popular style electronic music?

There is a reason I ask this. Normally I don't make this public information, but aside from my experience outlined in my introduction, I am an Independent Contractor for Record Union, which is kind of like a talent scout and not actually as impressive as what it sound like.

Point is, if someone like me comes along and is specifically looking for artists to sign up and work with, it would be great having a radio station that plays a certain brand of electronic music that is commercially viable. That way, someone like me can come along, hit the play button on a radio station that is intended to have a wider appeal and see what music pops up.

From what I am getting from this music forum, you have over 20,000 members but it seems like a handful of people (in comparison) actively taking part on the forum and in the music scene. It would be cool to see a radio station appear that appeals to a wider audience.

Don't get me wrong, the radio channels that I have listened to today are really awesome and have showcased the creativity of your members' ability, but it would be great to see a radio station appear that showcases music intended to have a wider appeal.

The Song ID tool that you guys use is a very good idea, especially if someone like me is using the radio for a particular purpose...

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