electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Rail to rail op amps
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
cloudberry



Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: uk

PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Rail to rail op amps Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi folks,


Is using a rail to rail op amp to limit the output voltage of a voltage adder A Bad Idea?
If so, why?
I'd like to ensure CV outputs are, say, 0-5V, regardless of inputs outside that range, to a DC mixer.
Allowing for falling short by a few millivolts, and nonlinearities close to the rails, feeding steady high impedance inputs....
I'm looking at LT1490a.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cloudberry



Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: uk

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah no. Some zeners in the feedback loop ought to do it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grumble



Joined: Nov 23, 2015
Posts: 1294
Location: Netherlands
Audio files: 30

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ah yes, that is one possibilities to limit the output voltage of a voltage adder, but make sure the inputs are also rail 2 rail and still be sure the rail doesn't exceed the VCC or the GND levels
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
cloudberry



Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: uk

PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, hopefully got those covered, and the lt1490a seems to be able to go well beyond the inputs' rails. 'Over the top' they call it. We'll see.
My problem seems to be trying to do level shifting, scaling, and limiting all with one op amp. One must be optimistic. But....

Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
diablojoy



Joined: Sep 07, 2008
Posts: 809
Location: melbourne australia
Audio files: 11

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

look at the mutable instruments site and some of schematics for idea's
mostly they are using MCP6002/4's
but they are doing essentially what you want

_________________
In an infinite universe one might very well
ask where the hell am I
oh yeah thats right the land of OZ
as good an answer as any
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cloudberry



Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: uk

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, I'll take a look.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3950
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

diablojoy wrote:
look at the mutable instruments site and some of schematics for idea's
mostly they are using MCP6002/4's
but they are doing essentially what you want

how does that work? according datasheet the opamp is rated with absolute maximum ratings of:
Quote:
All Inputs and Outputs VSS -0.3V to VDD +0.3V

permanent operation beyond these limtis may damage the chip...
normally one would use shottky diodes do protect the digital 0-5V inputs?

re OP: i once had the idea of using a simple limiter (opamp/diode based) after the voltage summing. however, this would compromise the linearity of your control voltages when it comes near the limit.

_________________
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
cheers,
matthias
____________
Big Boss at fonitronik
Tech Buddy at Random*Source
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
cloudberry



Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: uk

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
how does that work? according datasheet the opamp is rated with absolute maximum ratings of:
Quote:
All Inputs and Outputs VSS -0.3V to VDD +0.3V

permanent operation beyond these limtis may damage the chip...


I think that if the input voltages are 0.3 volt from the rail that that's still a pretty big swing no? And besides, if the op amps are used as inverting mixers, then both inputs will be at ground or 'virtual ground' anyway. The outputs will just hit the limits, which is what one wants.


Quote:
re OP: i once had the idea of using a simple limiter (opamp/diode based) after the voltage summing. however, this would compromise the linearity of your control voltages when it comes near the limit.


I came to similar conclusions, though one might want the non linear aspects sometimes. At the moment I'm working with clipping the output by using a diode in the feedback from output to inverting input.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3950
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cloudberry wrote:
Quote:
how does that work? according datasheet the opamp is rated with absolute maximum ratings of:
Quote:
All Inputs and Outputs VSS -0.3V to VDD +0.3V

permanent operation beyond these limtis may damage the chip...


I think that if the input voltages are 0.3 volt from the rail that that's still a pretty big swing no? And besides, if the op amps are used as inverting mixers, then both inputs will be at ground or 'virtual ground' anyway. The outputs will just hit the limits, which is what one wants.

"Absolute Maximum Ratings" mean that you must not exceed these limits, or you might damage the IC.
So using this Opamp powered from 0V to 5V means, that the input signal must not exceed a range of -0.3V to +5.3V.
Thus you cannot limit/shunt a signal just by using an Opamp powered from a lower voltage (like you would do with diodes).
(However this works with logic signals an transistors BTW)

This is how i understood the OP: we have a CV summing stage that might put out voltages beyond the desired/required 0V-5V range. And now we look for a good way to get this limited to the acceptable range?

_________________
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
cheers,
matthias
____________
Big Boss at fonitronik
Tech Buddy at Random*Source
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Grumble



Joined: Nov 23, 2015
Posts: 1294
Location: Netherlands
Audio files: 30

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
I think that if the input voltages are 0.3 volt from the rail that that's still a pretty big swing no? And besides, if the op amps are used as inverting mixers, then both inputs will be at ground or 'virtual ground' anyway. The outputs will just hit the limits, which is what one wants.

Not correct: the opamp, when configured with a feedback to the -input, will try to keep the -input to the same voltage as the +input, but if it fails due to the limitations caused by the power supply, the voltages will differ and opamps don't like that at all!
But some, not all, opamps have diodes between the inputs to protect the opamps against to much voltage between the inputs.
In that case, the opamp may be used to limit the output voltage.

http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-036.pdf
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3950
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

while we are on it, what could be an advantage of using an opamp ISO diodes?
_________________
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
cheers,
matthias
____________
Big Boss at fonitronik
Tech Buddy at Random*Source
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
fonik



Joined: Jun 07, 2006
Posts: 3950
Location: Germany
Audio files: 23

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Grumble wrote:
http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-036.pdf

as i read it excessive use of these diodes degrades the opamp, too. and the document still recommends to adhere to the absolute maximum ratings.
or did i misinterprete the part about the protection diodes? (p6)



so good to be back here at e-m.com and learning from others.

_________________
Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
cheers,
matthias
____________
Big Boss at fonitronik
Tech Buddy at Random*Source
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
cloudberry



Joined: Jun 30, 2009
Posts: 51
Location: uk

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I first posted I'd forgotten my rules of inverting op amp adders; thus, at least in theory, the voltage differential at the inputs will be tiny. However, the question of limiting still arises if one wants to ensure an upper output limit of, say, 5V, or scaling and limiting to say 2.5 to 10V.


That MT-036 document is very useful, thanks!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grumble



Joined: Nov 23, 2015
Posts: 1294
Location: Netherlands
Audio files: 30

PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fonik wrote:
Grumble wrote:
http://www.analog.com/media/en/training-seminars/tutorials/MT-036.pdf

as i read it excessive use of these diodes degrades the opamp, too. and the document still recommends to adhere to the absolute maximum ratings.
or did i misinterprete the part about the protection diodes? (p6)



so good to be back here at e-m.com and learning from others.

There are two kinds of maximum ratings: the absolute max ratings where one might destroy or degradate the opamp, and the maximum ratings where the opamp will act inside its parameters like linearity, power drain, gain, noise etc. but long as you follow the rules on page 7, the lines with the red dots, you will not destroy the opamp.
However, since the question is about limiting the output voltage by the power supply, I wouldn't worry to much about linearity or distortion Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic Moderators: jksuperstar, Scott Stites, Uncle Krunkus
Page 1 of 1 [14 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use