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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » NM Classic (NM1 or G1)
NM Micro vs. NM Rack
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Poster



Joined: Jul 19, 2005
Posts: 27
Location: Netherlands

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:41 am    Post subject: NM Micro vs. NM Rack Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all,
I currently own a NM Micro and thinking about buying a NM1 Rack..
I know what the technical differences are but I never heard the Rack in action..

Can someone explain me what the audible differences are?
I mean mono bass, fm/glitches and percussion would sound pretty much the same but is there a real audible difference in pads, leads and drones?
Is it worth the upgrade?

thanks..
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X-Electric



Joined: Jul 11, 2005
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Location: Warsaw, Poland
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've never played with 'full' NM, but i guess You wont get anything else than approx. 4x (8x expanded) polyphony, so it'd be the same as You'd overdubbed Your Micro that many times. Although I am thinking about buying 'full' version of NM, because sometimes it just makes me *SO* angry when I have to record some 1-note-polyphony-on-micro pad sequence 6 times note after note, just to get this 'fake' polyphony...
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cut_out



Joined: Feb 24, 2005
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Location: leicester

PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i bought a keyboard NM a few months ago, having owned a micro for about a year.

i'd say the main advantages are:

1) More knobs
2) Loads more patches in memory
2) Ability to edit patches in the machine
3) You can save patches without having to go to 'save patch' in the editor
4) Greater polyphony - pad sounds come to life!


Disadvantages are:

1) More knobs (gets confusing)
2) Loads more patches in memory (ditto)
3) Overall not as cool and quirky as the micro.

i am constantly having a struggle in my conscience about whether i need to have the keyboard modular when i tend to find i work a lot more with the micro when I have it set up (i like limitations!)... but then when i do set up the micro i end up cursing that i have to open the bloody editor everytime i want to make a small change.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

cut_out wrote:

4) Greater polyphony - pad sounds come to life!

Disadvantages are:

1) More knobs (gets confusing)

so do pads sound waaaaaaaaaay better or waaay better?

well, more knobs are not really a disadvantage for me Very Happy
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X-Electric



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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 5:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

"so do pads sound waaaaaaaaaay better or waaay better?"

I guess they just have those 4 or 8 voices of polyphony, nothing else Smile /Although that's just enough for me to buy one of these Wink /
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The display is a big advantage; more patches isn´t nearly as confusing if you can name them. YOu get two extra outputs which means you can use those two with the two inputs as send-returns. Four slots also means less loading during gigs. Pedal inputs are nice for extra controll. You get a "edit" mode that you can use to mke quite a few modifications to patches away fromt eh computer if you have memorised the patch structure or named your modules.

If sound quality is the only thing you are after then it realy depends on how much polyphony you actually use which heavily depends on your style; hard to say anything about that.

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Poster



Joined: Jul 19, 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
If sound quality is the only thing you are after then it realy depends on how much polyphony you actually use which heavily depends on your style; hard to say anything about that.

My style is pretty much the more uptempo'd idm..
So I use it alot for the lowpoly noise/bass/glitches..
But the Micro is poor in doing nice, deep layered, evolving pads and drones, well, at least the sound I'am looking for hasn't really crossed my ears yet..
I think the question isn't really how much poly I need, but does more poly really makes it an other synth (pad/drone wise)
thanks..
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Poster wrote:
Kassen wrote:
If sound quality is the only thing you are after then it realy depends on how much polyphony you actually use which heavily depends on your style; hard to say anything about that.

My style is pretty much the more uptempo'd idm..
So I use it alot for the lowpoly noise/bass/glitches..
But the Micro is poor in doing nice, deep layered, evolving pads and drones, well, at least the sound I'am looking for hasn't really crossed my ears yet..
I think the question isn't really how much poly I need, but does more poly really makes it an other synth (pad/drone wise)
thanks..
Poster


what is idm?
The main difference in sound is that monophon patches played on the big one with miore voices can sound very different ( fatter) than a MM.
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cebec



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

from the Wikipedia

Quote:
IDM, short for intelligent dance music, is an electronic music genre which began as a style of techno in the early 1990s and moved on to include the textures and sound manipulation methods of Musique concrète and early, "true" industrial bands such as Coil and Nurse With Wound. Unlike the driving, pounding sound of dancefloor techno, IDM is more cerebral, and often uses much lower or much higher tempos than is found in dance genres. In general, it is more melodic, less aggressive, and more quirky and improvisational. It is sometimes informally called intelligent techno, listening techno, art techno, experimental techno, or braindance, a term coined by Aphex Twin's Rephlex Records. The genre was also known for a while as electronica, though that term now encompasses many forms of electronic music from big beat to acid house.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligent_dance_music
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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

[quote="cebec"]from the Wikipedia

Quote:
IDM, short for intelligent dance music, is an electronic music genre which began as a style of techno in the early 1990s and moved on to include the textures and sound manipulation methods of Musique concrète and early, "true" industrial bands such as Coil and Nurse With Wound. Unlike the driving, pounding sound of dancefloor techno, IDM is more cerebral, and often uses much lower or much higher tempos than is found in dance genres. In general, it is more melodic, less aggressive, and more quirky and improvisational. It is sometimes informally called intelligent techno, listening techno, art techno, experimental techno, or braindance, a term coined by Aphex Twin's Rephlex Records. The genre was also known for a while as electronica, though that term now encompasses many forms of electronic music from big beat to acid house.


Oh Oh... this sounds rather stupid to me...
but thanks for the answer
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Phase;

It´s generally accepted that "IDM" is the genere with the stupidest name ever but there´s some nice stuff in that style, at least I think so.

It´s not like your own compositions have always been hallmark examples of compositional igninuity; when it comes down to it; one eching sample, a bassline and a 4/4 kick and a few hours of engineering on how the hats interact with the reverb are a pritty stupid concept too. I like it, but it´s still stupid. :¬)

What are you writing these days, b.t.w.?

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3phase



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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hallmark examples of compositional igninuity????
I only do live run offs .... At least 99,5 % of my work is done this way...
And i never was doing techno or house or what the fuck...
I was doing my own music since 1982 ( before it was punk ), with a strong influence from living within the berlin techno scene since 1990...that was the point where i accepted that 4 on the floor beats can be a challange,.. before i was doing drumprogramming by plaing Pads...afterwards i used rolandstyle step programming.
In the moment its a bit unmotivating what is going on outside. When a track dont fits precisly in one style you are either in the " what the fuck" cattegory or lost...
I however still do the tracks as they happen... painting in rough strokes I would say... more Da Da Style than Monzart...
I can do what i want...it dont makes a difference anyway.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 1:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wasn´t critisising you, I was pointing out that many great tracks are "stupid" too. I now realise you meant the idea of genres is stupid, not the constraints of that particular one.
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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I wasn´t critisising you, I was pointing out that many great tracks are "stupid" too. I now realise you meant the idea of genres is stupid, not the constraints of that particular one.


especially calling one genre intelligent...because this implies that all the others are stupid...

there is nothing more intelligent in any idm song than in maybe strings of live ...what is considered a classical techno piece...
But today nobody would consider this a techno piece at all..so its probably idm .-(
There is only good and bad music... originals and copys...
Its interesting how many subgenres are created now...a bad sign when the style police gets more mighty than the individual musican..Its time for something new i guess...
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Unfed



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

haven't they been calling it IDM for ~10+ years now? i'm almost suprised that you hadn't heard this term before, 3phase. just noticed a month or so ago that i've got one of your tracks titled 'Kong' on a NovaMute comp. i don't think that's too far from early IDM, though really more of an electro sound. great stuff...

i don't think it's so ridiculous if you think about it (though it is quite pretentious really). generally straight-forward techno or house music is far more accessible to meatheads and partiers, whereas most 'IDM' is appreciated by someone looking for music with a bit more 'depth(?)' or diversity. sort of like prog or 'math' rock compared to punk/indie maybe? i'm sure i've heard the term 'intelligent techno' used to describe some acts as well.

either way, it's not worth getting in an argument about.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, argument.... That´s a realy big word.

I do think 3Phase has a point; I think IDM got called "intelligent" by people who feel the need to feel superior in their musical taste to others IDM does atrackt some groups of people that are at least as unpleasant as "meatheads" and I suspect many IDM artists try substituting randomness for complexity.

There´s a lot of techno that has a lot of depth too, it´s just straightforward on a musical/compositional level which I personally found is apreceated by many quite intelligent people who want to unwind for a moment.

Amusingly the German (mainly Berlin and Cologne) schools of techno use techniques in the "classical" pieces that are now typical for IDM. You wouldn´t notice at first hearing but Mike Ink (studio 1, etc) used (uses?) loops of 12 counts instead of 16 (and similar ideas) relatively often and Basic Channel is chock-full of paterns of varying length layered over eachother. I think it´s praise worthy that those pieces are still atractive to "meatheads" while still containing such techniques.

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Unfed



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ehh, i don't think the dolts would be too into much stuff on Mille Plateux or Basic Channel either. these labels have never received the amount of respect here that they deserve. please keep in mind that the general population in the US is (as far as i know, never been to Europe) a bit different. techno is generally seen as a 'disposable' genre and many younger people never got further than going to a few 'raves' and buying some generic comps just for that 909 kick/hat. these people were more into a quick party than the music. if there was IDM being played at these parties i don't think it would have been as accessible to so many.

i'm not discounting techno at all, or giving too much credit to IDM either. i love both (though i'm more inclined to music based on breaks than 4/4) and see that both of you have excellent points on the matter.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Woops. Yes, I was looking at this completely from a European perspective, throwing the U.S. candy-rave thing thing on the "generic dance stack". Paradoxically that makes the deeper Craig and Mills stuff end up in Europe from my perspective which is quite unfair since for the very early days they realy placed the foundations of what would become the typical "Berlin" sound. It´s all quite confusing.

Still; regardless of how the genre is considered you can always slam down some "M" series Maurizio and for what I´ve seen of that scene I don´t think the U.S. candy ravers would boo "Der Klang der familie" either. There´s nothing wrong with being accessible as long that´s not all there is to it.

At least I think we can all agree that "Isopropanol" by Aphex has been labeled as either "Techno" or "IDM" depending on who you ask, is clearly "stupid" and is also a great track.

Perhaps we should have a discussion on the merrits of being stupid in the composition section. :¬)

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Unfed



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, maybe i was too vague by using the term 'meathead'. there's alot of kids/people here (mainly raised on cheap pop music and hip-hop) that are more into the fashion of music and 'fitting in' than the music itself. i didn't mean to imply *at all* that techno fans are 'stupid'. i have generally found though that most anyone i've met that is into 'IDM' has a different perspective on music as a whole.

another example - there's alot of people that are into the rock band Tool (they're very popular here), but do they really 'get it' or just the more accessible parts of it? i think you see alot of this in american culture sadly.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfed wrote:


another example - there's alot of people that are into the rock band Tool (they're very popular here), but do they really 'get it' or just the more accessible parts of it? i think you see alot of this in american culture sadly.



Do we get it ??? NOOO !!!
Do we want it ??? YEAH !!!
This is the new sh*t !!!

- Marylin Manson

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I kinda dropped of with Manson after Antichrist Superstar, does Dave Oglivi still engineer for him?
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
I kinda dropped of with Manson after Antichrist Superstar, does Dave Oglivi still engineer for him?


Hi Kassen,

I don't know who did the last Marylin Manson CD (Mobscene). But I like it. It sounds huge. Especially tracks 2 & 3. A good choice after a tough day at the office. I think I'll be playing it within the hour....

Hmm, we sure are getting OT aren't we? Oh yeah, if you want any polyphony the NM1 rack with expander is the way to go. The Micro is best suited for monophonic stuff like bass & sequency things and some noise stuff.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Could be him; Dave "rave" was also engineering Skinny Puppy and NIN. You can often tell it´s him by a very typical sort of multi-tracked distortion.

Before we drop this topic; I recomend "the long hard road out of hell" which mr. Manson wrote. It´s a book mainly about his youth up to the Antichirts album and it comes with my warmest recomendations if you like his lyrics and the way he talks with MTV vj´s. Should be a bargain by now.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Unfed wrote:
haven't they been calling it IDM for ~10+ years now? i'm almost suprised that you hadn't heard this term before, 3phase. just noticed a month or so ago that i've got one of your tracks titled 'Kong' on a NovaMute comp. i don't think that's too far from early IDM, though really more of an electro sound. great stuff...

i don't think it's so ridiculous if you think about it (though it is quite pretentious really). generally straight-forward techno or house music is far more accessible to meatheads and partiers, whereas most 'IDM' is appreciated by someone looking for music with a bit more 'depth(?)' or diversity. sort of like prog or 'math' rock compared to punk/indie maybe? i'm sure i've heard the term 'intelligent techno' used to describe some acts as well.

either way, it's not worth getting in an argument about.


we are not having arguments...thats not a point that touches me personally.. its just a bit odd that every 10 years some so called inteligent sub genres are created... one day there will be inteligent gabba..wait and see/hear
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen wrote:
Woops. Yes, I was looking at this completely from a European perspective, throwing the U.S. candy-rave thing thing on the "generic dance stack". Paradoxically that makes the deeper Craig and Mills stuff end up in Europe from my perspective which is quite unfair since for the very early days they realy placed the foundations of what would become the typical "Berlin" sound. It´s all quite confusing.

Still; regardless of how the genre is considered you can always slam down some "M" series Maurizio and for what I´ve seen of that scene I don´t think the U.S. candy ravers would boo "Der Klang der familie" either. There´s nothing wrong with being accessible as long that´s not all there is to it.

At least I think we can all agree that "Isopropanol" by Aphex has been labeled as either "Techno" or "IDM" depending on who you ask, is clearly "stupid" and is also a great track.

Perhaps we should have a discussion on the merrits of being stupid in the composition section. :¬)


As a witness form the berlin side i can tell you that you dont find theire sound in berlin...they do theire own music ..same as everybody did in the earlier times of this genre. The challange was to create somehow future music and the tennis match between the us and europe was going bang bang bang... Maybe this electro house movement is the first really international music that happened sofar..and berlin was quite a center spot at this time with a close detroit connection while chicago,new york and sanfranscisco as much as london bruxels rotterdam aso played theire parts.. The Italien was copying everything quick..the spanish offered theier ibiza as a boiling spot and al the hippy scene was celebrating in goa..And the french was late but remixed madonna Smile
A pretty global thing but even with the strong US participation never US enough to become mainstream there.
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