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 Forum index » How-tos » Production - engineering/mixing
Cleaning funky mixer signals
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Then I recorded with the G2 plugged direct into the MOTU 828MKII. No comparison - much less noise and distortion.


Very Happy

You might consider investing in some modern analog EQs/compressors/limiters/mic pres when the need arises. Anyway, unless you have a Speck LiLo or similar high end gear, using a mixer for the inputs makes not much sense these days. The budget gear is simply not good enough and the most of these mixers are really only suited for live use.

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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I had done quite a bit of research in looking at a new sound card recently, and the 828mkII was one of my choices.

I remember you can set up the CueDSP software, then when unplugged, you can switch between 16 different presets with no PC connected at all. I also remember it supported the Mackie Control Surface protocol...not sure what that meant, but it seemed to allow for a control surface to take command of the CueDSP..giving you hands on control without menu diving or touching a mouse.

If all else fails, you can setup Cubase, or Live, or whatever you use as a MIDI controlled Mixer (ASIO drivers are pretty damn quick with low latency), which let's you always be ready for recording Smile

I've also heard of alot of people picking up the Behringer ADA8000, which are OK AD/DAs connected directly to an ADAT port...essentially expanding your 828mkII with 8 more channels of I/O for when you have studio guests over.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I looked at the Mackie Onyx mixers with the optional firewire I/0. This is nice because you can send 16 channels to the computer. Your mixer input and the recorded signal are identical. Perfect - but it is expensive IMHO and you only get 16 channels.

Thing about this, I read about the INSERT connections. This is wornderful. I can route the signal both to the Mackie mixer for monitoring, but also directly into the MOTU 828 for recording. Test recordings sound excellent.

party time!

astroid power-up!
, I didn't understand what your were saying about the about using the insert the half-in plugs. Now I see. Thanks.

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djfoxyfox
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

jksuperstar wrote:
I've also heard of alot of people picking up the Behringer ADA8000, which are OK AD/DAs connected directly to an ADAT port...essentially expanding your 828mkII with 8 more channels of I/O for when you have studio guests over.
That's exactly what I did. It was in my plan before I even bought the computers and MOTU that I had selected.

Cheers,

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Jason



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

At my last job we had a few mackies where the bus 1-2 I think it was that was going intermittent, or was it the control room out. Anyway , yes we had to take them apart and find the nasty bad component which is kinda hard. I had help from my co-workers engineers that knew what they were doing. It was indeed some older caps that seemed bad. We replaced them and it seemed to fix the problem though it was very discouraging
having it happen on more than 1. I doubt that helps much but yes it sure is a pain.
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Jason



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oh yes , and there are many different sprays you can use, the names escape me now , though I bet you know of them Mosc.
Some are called flux remover etc though there are many.
Easily found at electronic supply stores...
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astroid power-up!



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

Thing about this, I read about the INSERT connections. This is wornderful. I can route the signal both to the Mackie mixer for monitoring, but also directly into the MOTU 828 for recording. Test recordings sound excellent.

party time!

astroid power-up!
, I didn't understand what your were saying about the about using the insert the half-in plugs. Now I see. Thanks.


you're welcome. i had some veteran engineer show me that, and am glad to pass it on. that's all i use, cause i want to mostly avoid the dirty mackie preamps.

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djfoxyfox
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

astroid power-up! wrote:
... i want to mostly avoid the dirty mackie preamps.
Using the inserts avoids the preamps? I doubt it. Not using the XLR mic inputs and using the 1/4" line inputs instead avoids the preamps. At least that's my understanding of how a mixer works. However, using the inserts avoids the extra electronics of the busses and output sections. Fewer electronics = quieter sound. Confirm this by looking at the flow chart/block diagram in the manual.

Cheers,

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paul e.



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dirty mackie pre amps eh

mhh i have a mackie 1202VLZ and they sound pretty darn clean to me...pretty transparent..no noise..lotsa headroom

never had any problem after 10 years of owning it

not saying it's an API lunchbox or Neve SuperAnalogue...but the mackie pre amps are fully useful

some people who complain about mackie may be using the old non VLZ versions of mackie..those older non VLZ ones are no where near as useful as the VLZ ones

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deknow



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bill, i was confused by this as well. i think you can (if you work at it) get the tip of the plug to contract the ring of the jack (the direct out method contacts the tip to the tip, but doesn't break the connection as an insert would). you certainly can bypass the preamps if you use an insert cable and only use the "return" portion (or perhaps by using a stereo plug and only using the ring and sleeve). personally, i've done recordings by renting mic's and using the preamps on the mixer only (not the rest of the mixer).

i think the mic pre's are always on (regardless of xlr or 1/4").

deknow
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mosc
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think Bill is right about the preamps, they are in there all the time. Even when you take the signal from the insert plug (half plugged) you are going through the preamp. You can prove this by adjusting the gain trim knob. I don't see that as a problem. The preamps aren't too bad from tests I have run. In fact, they are virtually transparent. The noise and distortion come from the EQ (which can't be switched off), the busses and output stages.

I tried dropping the Mackie completely and going directly into the MOTU. That works if you use the internal CueMix application for controlling monitor levels, but there isn't MIDI control for this.

I tried using Sonar to control monitor by using the echo thru mode. There is too much latency for me.

I'm still surprised that the little Behringer is quieter than the VLZ Mackie.

Maybe my Mackie is just loaded with bad caps. (Deknow's and Astroid's too?). Maybe Mackie isn't as good as people think.

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deknow



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i think mackie gained their reputation in an era when there were no other decent and affordable options (and they were not cheap, but compared to a "real" board, they were rugged, portable, and decent). my mackie was a pre-vlz version, and i know i'm not the only one who didn't like how it colored a good 909 kick (i know one well known techno producer who used to use 9 channells on his 1604 just to get the kick sound right).

i think a better statement might be "i'm suprised at how much better the behringer is than people say it is". part of the anti behringer cult is that they did copy a lot of mackie designs (and were sued for it, i believe successfuly). also, every other manufacturer (at least in the states), knows that they can't buy parts wholesale for what you can buy an assembled behringer unit for.

you can bypass the mic pre's (again, by using only the return from a proper insert cable, or hacking a stereo cable, and perhaps by balancing a cable between positions).

i'm sure others here know about the "bad caps" in the computer world (a case of industrial esponage gone awry)....perhaps they ended up in audio gear as well (i think they would show up in the power supplies).

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astroid power-up!



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

to clarify, on my mixer, a mackie 1604 vlz pro, you can half-patch in the insert section to avoid the eq and lo-cut parts of the board. the pres are on the trim knob, unavoidable. but all that other business can be avoided-the eq pots and the fader.
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djfoxyfox
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

astroid power-up! wrote:
to clarify, on my mixer, a mackie 1604 vlz pro, you can half-patch in the insert section to avoid the eq and lo-cut parts of the board. the pres are on the trim knob, unavoidable. but all that other business can be avoided-the eq pots and the fader.
Just to be clear for all readers, Mackie wires insert jacks with tip = send and ring = return. This means that a half-inserted TR plug, which does not break the normalled connection between send and return, must accept a signal from the mixer, making the insert jack function as a direct output. Because the normalled connection is not broken, the input stage signal still goes through the rest of the mixer's stages but the direct output is after the input electronics and before the output electronics, providing a cleaner signal for recording. See Mackie's PDF info at http://mackie.com/pdf/vlzproseries_hu.pdf for details. The manual, page 11, says that the insert is after the trim and before the EQ, Low Cut, fader, and mute controls.

Cheers,

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