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Anti-music
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rnp



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

we have a classic "what is art" discussion on our hands here I fear. there are no absolutes in this domain in my opinion. who am I to define the "soul" of someone else's work. I can feel how there might be an overlap with my interpretation of it or there might be a rational aspect that to it that is stimulating (I'd put most noise in that category).

if someone has the urge to shit on a plank and someone else has the glorious idea to put it in a gallery, more power to them, but what of the value/soul of this piece, who can determine that?

well, actually I don't believe the "more power to them" part. it's my firm belief that people like Duchamp, Warhol and others were laughing their ass off when they made and displayed their readymades and copies - the unfortunate thing is that they started a trend that went from there and got blown out of proportion, mainly by a greedy elite interested in making (gasp) money.

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sebber



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
it's my firm belief that people like Duchamp, Warhol and others were laughing their ass off when they made and displayed their readymades and copies - the unfortunate thing is that they started a trend that went from there and got blown out of proportion, mainly by a greedy elite interested in making (gasp) money.


Duchamp obviously didn't want you to say: wow, what a beautiful item is that? I think you'd have more fun trying to find out why they (the artists)did what they did instead of holding on to firm believes.
As for the "greedy elite": I don't like rich people. They make me greedy. I guess it's my problem, not theirs.

I'm a little late in this discussion, let me comment on something I read on page two: elektro80 said...

Nah, don't worry. Laughing

As much as I wouldn't dig the Cage-concert Mosc wrote about I think the book "Conversing with Cage" by Kostelanetz is a must read and amazingly fresh and inspiring. Great great book. I'd buy it for all of you if I could (if I were part of the greedy elite I would Exclamation )
I think a lot of Cage's ideas are now common ground and so it might seem that he only said what was in the air already. But honour to the honourable: Cage is the inventor of Cageian ideas. And if he didn't write music and if he misunderstood buddhism: I couldn't care less. He wouldn't care less. After all, aren't we all just dust in the wind? Laa dadaa daa daa, dee dee daa? [walks away, humming]
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sebber wrote:
After all, aren't we all just dust in the wind? Laa dadaa daa daa, dee dee daa? [walks away, humming]

WHAT A BEAUTIFUL ENDING Very Happy why don't we lock this thread here Question I authorize Mosc to cancel this post of mine and leave "Laa dadaa daa daa, dee dee daa" as THE END of it Very Happy

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rnp



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

sebber wrote:
Duchamp obviously didn't want you to say: wow, what a beautiful item is that? I think you'd have more fun trying to find out why they (the artists)did what they did instead of holding on to firm believes.
As for the "greedy elite": I don't like rich people. They make me greedy. I guess it's my problem, not theirs.


I didn't intend this as a critique of modern art itself, but as someone involved with the "verwertungskette" of it via my job I think that once the idea of his work was appropriated into the art mainstream it became a fashion item. I can appreciate Duchamp's work no problem but I usually grin and think about the absurdity of a lot of readymades in contemporary art - the opinion I have about him naturally developed over time.

so I guess I was bitching about the way interpretation of modern art, especially in academics, works. and that is usually the dogmatic part because especially in germany there is a certain dominance of scholars with a very narrow range of opinions that will praise fluxus all day long and say nothing of, for instance, Otto Dix or other 20th century artists that didn't happen to exhibit an (albeit autobiographical) piece of lard.

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sebber



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I understand now. But I don't think there's nationwide academic establishment. Instead I think that every university and city offers its own proprietary prejudisms (spelling?) and this is why moving can be so inspiring - until you find out how the prejudism in the new town works.
When I made a tour through the Staatsgalerie in Stuttgart the guide would praise Otto Dix and make fun of Beuys. This is what I normally experience, maybe we should swop lifes?
But I've become completely OT and will shut up.
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rnp



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

hah, yes you're right about the regional differences (and about the OT too).

I didn't think about that - plus, if a university in a town is progressive, the state gallery of the same town will most likely be the polar opposite, etc. my statement could too easily be misunderstood as some kind of reactionary bs about modern art sucking period - not intended like that at all.

again, sorry for the OT.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I wouldn´t say these diversions are OT at all. Very Happy This is getting even more interesting.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, I think anything that links philosphy, culture or -in case of dire emergency- art to making music is perfectly topical and it's my section.

So there.
Razz

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This local art thing is probably more of a European thing than American. I get this feeling from my experience talking to European friends. My guess is that in the US the art establishment isn't all that established.

At any rate, one of the values of electro-music.com is inclusiveness. Here at least we can have people that do DJ, dance, DnB, and Techno discussiing music with people with academic backgrounds, circuit benders and noise addicts.

Here at least, composing something that is anti-music would be quite a challenge. Sombody would probably think it was musical, no matter how hard you tried to make it not so. Shocked

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2005 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Sombody would probably think it was musical, no matter how hard you tried to make it not so. Shocked


Which I suppose in a sort of unspoken way is the point realy, kinda like how the best techno sounds strangely human...

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sebber



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Mosc, when I stay in the US and I hear what one university says about another... I would call that a school (school in the meaning of teaching a fixed set of values and opinions and prejudism). But 've been told it's been much more so 15 years ago, now it's more an "anything goes and nobody cares" thing.
BUT:
Actually I like education in a fixed set better, because I don't think that teachers who don't express an opinion about the pupils' work are good teachers. I often see it that the talented students leave such teachers and seek somebody with a strong personality to, hm, not fight with but you see what I mean. They're looking for some friction to sharpen their minds. The not-so-talented students alas stay with their teachers and don't learn nothing.
For the pupil it might take a while to set free from the dominant teacher person, but in my opinion that's much better than a fluffy everything's-ok attitude.

Geez, I'm so conservative. I even think you need to practize to become a good musician.
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