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Anti-music
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Zembla.. could you repost your request in Schmooze? I will move my answering post there too.. and clean up this thread. OK? Classical music is a great subject.
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illuminated



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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2005 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Hmmm. I like being a noise musician and I play unattended pianos in hotel lobbies too.


....And that's great. I'm not at all oposed to playing unatended pianos. You know very well what I meant there.


Quote:

Changing subjects, I don't see what is gained by pointing out that one doesn't like this or that music. What can come from this? Do you (not speaking of someone in particular here) want to convince someone that some music or anti-music/noise that they enjoy is in actuality bad. "Oh you like that, you think that is music. Well let me tell you it sucks." This only has negative effects in the world. What is the desired effect? "I used to love D&B music but Mosc convinced me it's stupid. Now I hate it." (This is an example, of course. I used to dislike D&B until I opened my ears in a new way. Now, I'm better off for enjoying it.


I think that in many cases the dislike comes from a mental obstacle, a perspective on gets stuck in. Some discussion might challenge that perspective and allow people to look at the matter in a diferent light, enabeling them to see some music in a different way.

Quote:

Unless someone tells me anything good can come from this kind of negative converstation. I request we stop it. On the other hand, only good can come from postive conversations about music. "I like this music. It is not noise, I find it beautiful (or intellegent, interesting, inspiring, transendental, etc)." What bad can come from this? Let's continue this kind of discussion.


I think this current debate is a very positive thing. For sure there is a lot of disagreement but I think we are dealing with the disagreement in a very mature and positive way, trying to see eachothers perspective. We are covering quite a bit of ground here ranging from virtuocity to the way venues work to concetpts behind music and emotional involvement. Some amount of disagreement is to be expected and in fact IMHO is very healthy since it stems from diferent perspectives that we can try and share.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

skiptracer wrote:
It doesn't take shit for talent to make emotionally moving music.


Well, no, agreed. I'd like to add that it doesn't need to take a strong concept either (even if I'll join you in admitting I'm a conceptual kind of guy too).

However, it sure does help. I would say that for both feedback loops on pedals and pianos (as well as laptop, violins and anything else) it's very possible to make a great, moving, piece without any tallent but what about 50 pieces? In a row?

Aditionally; anybody can make a acceptable piece of noise, if luck and inspiration strike, but how many people can make a profoundly moving noise performance each and every time they walk on stage? Relatively few, I suspect. This is where I believe experience, dedication and indeed talent enter the equation and I think they do so in exactly the same way for both noise and pianos, even if the learning curve may not be the same.

I think we can extend this to concepts, I think there is a certain amount of virtuocity in picking concepts and executing them too. BTW I believe this potentially affects piono pieces as much as it does noise. My personal favourite piano pieces happen to be highly conceptual affairs. To me Chopin's etudes are very conceptual things that speak profoundly on such matters as scales and rithem but to work well beyond looking remarkable on sheets you'd better have a lot of experience with actually playing well. To me that does not diminish their value; for sure experience isn't a end in itself but can we agree that it will serve nicely as a means in many situations?

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zembla



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

For my edification could you mention/link some examples of the kind of noise anti-music you are referring to?

Jim
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One example of noise music is this one. I won´t tell you if it is good or bad or even antimusic. You gotta play it loud. Really loud. And then some.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This one is cute.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

These files were recorded by Lasse Marhaug. He is fairly well known, and probably not a good example of "bad" noise music, whatever that is. His stuff is pretty entertaining and rather decent music. If you ever get the chance.. go to one of his concerts. One issue is of course that x number of kids are making noise music that is supposed to sound like lasse marhaug. Whatever he makes is kosher, so a big part of the scene is about emulating lasse marhaug. He probably thinks this is OK for now, but imagine how tiring this must be by 2030. This is not unique. There are thousands of Lustmord emulators hard at work out there too.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I should add that I don´t know if this is the kind of "noise" the others here are thinking of.
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rnp



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

thanks for those links, the liveset on the second one is awesome, listening now. however you're right, I wouldn't consider Marhaug typical for the bulk of the noise scene. much closer in spirit to Raster Noton than to, say, Ant-Zen (boring label analogies I know, but it works as mental connector for me).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I enjoyed that.

Definitely music though. He betrays a bourgeois preoccupation with rhythm and pitch Wink

Jim
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I like John Duncan.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I think "Anti-Music", some (findably) well-known, current, examples I think of are Black Dice, The Skaters, and Jandek.

A casual listener would call this "stuff" noise, but I think a closer listen reveals that these people understand rhythm, melody, and cadence well enough to slip in and out of musical conventions at will -- to the end of expressing something about the human condition.

To me, that's when it really gets interesting -- since I think rhythm and melody will be "core values" of music, as long as there are people.

Regarding talent/education:
I think there's some truth to the old saw that "it helps to know the rules, when attempting to break them properly".

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

skiptracer wrote:
It doesn't take shit for talent to make emotionally moving music.


I just want to check so that I'm not having a language issue here... to me, talent translates to my swedish "talang", which is imported from french (I guess), and means stuff that you can't really learn, but rather is the base requisite for being able to create art that really appeals to people. Could also be applied to being good in sports.

As in:

"You can work your ass off, but if you don't have any talent, you're not going to get there"

or

"They picked out the most talented kids and gave them special training to develop their abilities".

So talent is something that you see pretty early in a learning process.

I hope I am not nitpicking - I just hate to feel like I'm missing out on subtleties in an argument because I don't completely grasp the language.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I once knew a guy named Ken Werner who used the alias (stage name?) of Phil Harmonic. We were students together at Mills College. He died a few years ago, unfortunately. Anyway, he was big into conceptual art and music.

He was upset with this talent concept. He wanted to break from the concept of talent. I think he saw music as not too much different from professional modeling or beauty contests. If you have talent, you are a good musician. The more talent, the more successful you were. People born with talent were the chosen few to be adored by the rest of society. If you have no telent, you get nothing. People even put you down if you try to express yourself musically. Talent was a substitute for racisim - bigotry at the extreme.

He would do performances that would play to this. Naturally, some people hated him - called his music "non-music", talentless, charlatinism, that sort of thing. I used to have a radio program on a local station in Berkeley, KPFA. The show was called Thin Aire. I would have Ken on from time to time. Not to play music, but to talk. People started to express hatred for me too, just for treating him like he was a real musician.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That's good then. If people get unreasonably mad at you it often hints at them being either insecure or perhaps that they secretly fear you might be right.

I think we should face it with a more open mind. Looking objectively it would be great if there were a form that could be expressive yet required no heavy learning curve or time consuming practice sessions. If noise would realy offer this then I'd say we should all go make noise as soon as possible. Sure, we would "throw away" years, maybe decades of practice but surely that would beat having to practice for yet more time?

(yes, that's meant provocatively)

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

noise doesn't hurt people - people hurt people... Wink
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've only been exposed to 2 types of noise music: one kind *tries* to make/find/create patterns out of noise. The other tries to create noise out of patterns. The third type, having no pattern whatsoever, I don't klnow if I'd consider *music*. Then again, if it expresses some type of emotion, which may also be like having no pattern or form, then it very well might be music. Who cares? Do I like what I'm hearing *right now*. That's what's important to me. The only reason to record something is that I might like it better at a later date. Or like it again. When it suites my state of mind. Or maybe someone else's state of mind. Other than that, why bother?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

While Phil Harmonic made me think and opened up my attitude, I do believe there is such a thing as talent. I mean, I don't know how much study you will do - how much practice - but very few people can write songs like Bob Dylan. I know friends who have great talent for piano. They started taking piano lessons when I did and practiced no more then me, but the play much better. I think they have more talent for this instrument. I have certain talents too - certain abilities that almost seem to come naturally. As undemocratic as it may be, there really is such a thing.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

skiptracer wrote:

Fuck talent. Fuck statements. Let's take a step back and take a look at what is music? It originated as communal fun, bonding, relationships, courtship. Why has it mutated into idol worship, a tool for self definition, and a catalyst for fake emotion... stimulation.


One theory about the origin of music I read was that music started as a way for young males to show off to young females. I suppose that that immediately places "practice" and "talent" as well as a host of other things into perspective.

Much of our behaviour still has it's roots in hunter-gatherer culture and I don't think music is such a huge exception.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ken Werner links:

http://www.lovely.com/bios/harmonic.html

Shocked Laughing

http://www.o-art.org/history/70's/CcmCrowd70s/SevenYears/7YearsTape3.html

Quote:
PHIL HARMONIC (KENNETH WERNER): final excerpt from THE ROLLING TONES RADIO HOUR (1976)

singing: Phil Harmonic, "Blue" Gene Tyranny, announcer: Howard Moscowitz. Phil's other recent work includes the founding of a meeting place/performance space called "ART-WHILE-U-WAIT", music from daily weather maps for various keyboard instruments, the annual Beethoven's Birthday celebration concerts, Radio Music, The New Look Magazine, Win A Dream Date With Phil, The Fenton's Ice Cream Parlor Journal.


http://www.johnbischoff.net/images_past_2.html

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I can't prove whether or not the Soul really exists, but I think that the idea of supernatural things is, at least, a useful analogy for humans to talk about things that are beyond our current ability to measure.

That being said, I think art, in general, is something that toes the line between Body and Soul.

I propose that many well-regarded musicians have acknowledged some spiritual or "mysterious" element in music.

For my part, I feel that the modern market-research-driven "zeitgeist-mirror" known as the Music Industry is not the most hospitable berth for spiritual activities. I think it's mostly a place for aggressive self-promoters and self-marketers.

I think technology is democratizing things to the extent that a new wave of minstreldom will emerge, and that music may again become a gentle, intimate social activity done predominantly for the love of it.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

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