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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » NM Classic (NM1 or G1)
MAC patches vs. PC patches on Classic
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Repeatpeak



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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:27 am    Post subject: MAC patches vs. PC patches on Classic Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi,

I've been experiencing problems with MAC saved Nord Modular Classic patches on my Windows XP box. Besides having to add the .pch extension, the editor didn't want to open those patches at first. Examining the patches in Notepad though didn't show any additional info than in a PC saved patch. Trying some more did eventually open the MAC saved patches in the editor but on occasion the editor gives some kind of error message and disconnects the midi connection. Also, some patches (don't know if they were originally MAC or PC) seem to crash the editor after some time while the editor is pretty stable with other patches. LEDs are set to off, btw.

This might also be connected with my problem saving banks from the editor (See my other thread)

Has anyone else experienced problems with MAC patches on PC?

Thanks
Philip
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I don't use the NM1 or the Mac anymore, so my comments are possibly not very relevant or approprate, but the NM1 patch files are ASCII,- just text files. Notepad isn't a very sophisticated text editor so it might not be very good at detecting any undesired control characters that might somehow have gotten into your files during the move from Mac to PC.

It might be a good idea to check out these files with a fancier editor. There are many free ones. See: http://www.thefreecountry.com/programming/editors.shtml

I use VIM myself because it works on all platforms and I'm familiar with the UNIX vi editor on which it is based. It might not be the best choice if you don't already know vi.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Can you post such a Mac made patch that gives trouble ?

I'd like to check it in a hex editor to see if anyything strange can be discovered.

NOTE : please ZIP the patch so that the internet doesn't do anything to it, at least not undetected.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I suspect there might be some issue with OSX and plain text files, aside from the extentions thing. A while ago I burned a cd (from XP with Nero) that included a plain text listing of the files that were on there (listing made under Linux, saved as plain txt with the extention). Later I opened this under OSX and OSX got very confused about it, refused to open it by double clicking, sugested Adobe Photoshop as a sensible program to open it with. We forced it into the text reader to which OSX responded by pretending there were 2 files called "file_id.txt". I wasn't pleased with this at all, actually I had named it .txt because literally anything should be able to open plain txt; amiga's atari's, anything eats txt so why not OSX?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have not had any problems at all. I have been using both a PC IBM laptop and a Powerbook with the NM-1.

The mac app TextEdit can open txt files but it saves the files in RTF. This might be confusing.. ( Not really.. but who knows.. ) because I mess around with servers and stuff I always have various text editors on my machines. One of my favorite editotrs is BBEDIT. I hardly ever use TextEdit and If I want to mess with rtf I use Pages instead anyway.

The .pch files are plain txt files with no resource fork. They should not make any problems on a PC.

As for the CD burning thingie.. it sounds like you for some reason have tricked OS X into thinking it should consider resources forks and whatnot. A file format which isn´t a file format is the .dat
A .dat file can be virtually anything and these can create havoc. .dat is also an image format extension.. so you might see Photoshop and Lemke´s GC trying to pry those .dats open with a crowbar.
For some nice freeware text editors try this search. These are nice for all sorts of tasks, like coding or editing the plist xml files or whatever.

Of course OS X can handle text files. Being a unix based OS it is hardly anything but text files. Laughing

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well, of cource I didn't doubt it could wrok with them! That would be silly, I just thought there might be some hidden issues.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Windows text files and Unix text files are slightly different in that the EOL (End Of Line) is handled differently. Nowadays, OSX, Linux, and XP can handle either form. Windows format put in extra character at the EOL. The NM editor writes the same format on both platforms. Copying files from one OS to another usually doesn't change the format of the files themselves.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

One issue: Stuffit Deluxe ( compression app for Mac ) can kill EOLs. Check out the settings. It can be dangerous to use this one for unzipping of text files. There isn´t really problem, but you will need to look into the settings.
Other decompression apps might make a mess too.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ok, but I made that file under Linux, then burned it from XP but XP didn't touch it (that I know of). Shouldn't OSX and Linux deal with it the same way, both being Unix's?

Anyway, what realy anoys me is if files either have no extention (for example due to coming from a Mac) and I have to guess (I don+t care about renaming, but please tell me what it is in a mail or whatever) or if something claims to have one extention, then turns out to be something different. I saw one of those a while ago, some sort of windows media affair that claimed to be one, then Linux screamed bloody murder that it was another (and refused to play it for security reasons) and I had to rename it.

That's all very anoying, I like stuff to be simple and clear or at the very least well documented.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I dunno about that CD thingie. I gotta visit you and inspect the lot.

As for extensions, I agree with you. One way to fix that on the mac is making a few scripts the check for the creator and type of the file, and then the script adds the proper extension. I am sure there are readymade scripts on the web already. I have made a few droplets that designers at work are using in order to fix such problems. A common problem is that Microsoft Office for mac just started adding extensions recently. Old files will be msiing extensions ( using the type and creator scheme instead ) and you know what happens when you drag these files to a PC.
And some stupid apps still don´t add proper extensions. Shitty.
All the Apple apps are adding the proper extensions. This is a 3rd party app problem.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes! I had one of those. Got a huge file without a extention, so I went what's that? Then the guy went "that's a MS office doc, you must be a PC guy". Had to repress the urge there to reply that I didn't realy like using MS products....

That text file was anoying, I resisted calling it "file_id.diz" for old time's sake because I feared that that extention might cause trouble. Ah, well, it worked in the end, without the use of a prompt, even.

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Repeatpeak



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Sorry I wasn't able to follow up on this thread earlier. The problems I was experiencing seemed to have more to do with running other applications (sequencers and standalone editors for other gear) at teh same time with the Nord Modular editor. Eventhough I have a dedicated separate midi interface for the Nord editor, running several applications and midi note data from a sequencer to the Nord while editing it in teh software editor seem to have caused the issues I thought were patch related.
Regarding the MAC patches: I had to add the pch extension and when trying to open the patches in the editor it didn't work at first. Trying again though, all those patches started to work. I now have not been able to distinguish between 'former' MAC created patches and PC created patches after the intial first problem with opening the MAC patches.

In any case, running just the editor and no other software seems to be pretty stable now. Too bad it's not working well to edit patches in the editor while running a sequencer connected to the Nord at the same time.

Philip
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm coming in to this post WAY late but I just thought I'd mention that acording to the manual a patch must be saved with suffix of .pch for use with a PC.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 10:30 am    Post subject:
Subject description: EOL designations
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Regarding End Of Line (EOL) designations, and programs choking on some text files:

There's a little app called dos2unix (in unix world) that will strip out the extra "Carriage Return" MS windows puts at the EOL. (*nix uses an ASCII defined character that is both EOL/Carriage Return, where MS believes this to only mean EOL, then adds a seperate "Carriage Return".) I know I have to run this for some files that are pumped into CAD programs I use (synopsys, etc). Rarely, but occasionally, these files will get choked on. But knowing that the dos2unix (and unix2dos) programs exist is a big help.

If you use emacs, emacs can distinguish (and will tell you in the status bar) what type of text file your editing (unix, dos, etc).

Ok, we now return you to your regularly scheduled thread-speak....
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I know this thread is kinda oldish but I used to have exactly the same problem- but the other way round. i.e. opening patches on Mac OS9 and X which had been made on a PC.

It made absolutely no difference whether the patch had .pch on the end or not- as the problem kept on appearing.

BUT from my research into this problem, I found that it wasn't necessarily to do with platform- but as Stein suggested- compression. Not in the case of Stuffit but in the case of Outlook Express- because when asking other NM@code404 members who were using PC- the problem was only occuring with OE users. OE used (or still does?) compression called MIME- and this seemed to be the root of the problem- but I haven't sent NM patches in ages- and have forgotten the eventual conclusion which isn't very helpful I admit Sad

So try turning off MIME and set EVERYTHING to plain text (I know Jan will be happy there!!)
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MIME is not really about compression.. Laughing
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MIME is not compression, it is a tag that is associated with any file you get from a web browser or email client. The MIME type is used by our local computer to figure out who to open the file in the correct application.

If there is a problem with the MIME type, it can come from two sources, either the server is setting a wrong MIME type, like saying a .pch file is a text file, or the local client doesn't know what to do with the MIME type.

You can tell your browser or email client what to do with each MIME type - usually in the options setting.

MIME has nothing to do with compression - unless the file is compressed, like a ziped file or something.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Laughing

Hey Howard.. !

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
MIME is not really about compression.. Laughing


Okay I'm readily open to admit my ignorance- but that is what I thought MIME was- compression. Obviously not.

Why is it so funny?

MIME (whatever it is) was the problem (and probably still is)..
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When you click on the .pch file your mail reader or whatever you are using doens't know what to do with that file. In the mail readers options, there must be some way to tell it what program to run for a file that has the .pch extension.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
MIME is not compression, it is a tag that is associated with any file you get from a web browser or email client. The MIME type is used by our local computer to figure out who to open the file in the correct application.


Thankyou Howard Smile. It's nice that someone's prepared to explain what MIME is.

Stein, what is the Mac equivelent then?
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
Stein, what is the Mac equivelent then?


Same thing.. MIME

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIME


Sorry about the laugh though. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well that's most strange. It must be another one of those Bill vs Steve moments again? Perhaps? Perhaps not. Weird Confused
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

MIME isn't really MS or anything else. It came from the fact there are many OSes, and many computers that all treat data differently. MIME was just a way for the application to know what the file was supposed to be.

This is getting buried under friendlier terms these days. Try going into your browser's options, then look for Plug-ins, or plug-in types. In MS Windows, it's called "File Types". That's all basically MIME in action.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

v-un-v wrote:
compression called MIME
So try turning off MIME and set EVERYTHING to plain text (I know Jan will be happy there!!)


Most email programs seem to know how to handle MIME nowadays, but we used to have a lot of problems on the mailing list with patches containg =20 stuff, or LF's instead of CRLF, or actually all kinds of fanatasy use of CR and or LF.

I think this trouble came from "Content-type: text/plain" instead of "Content-type: application/octet-stream" being used for the attached patches. Different platforms use different ways to handle the text based extensions, and the NM editor doesn't like that at all.

Easiest way on windows to get "octet-stream" (or binary) PCH attachments is to install the NM editor, but it can be edited manually as well. Disabling MIME for outgoing mail would avoid the =20 stuff in the case text encoding was used, I guess. But I forgot about the details. It was a mess though, that's for sure :-)

And I'm still opposed to HTML mail of course, but that's another thing.

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