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Prosoniq Morph?
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elektro80
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:09 pm    Post subject: Prosoniq Morph? Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found some online demo mp3s.

http://www.prosoniq.com/html/morphaudioex.html

The idea is very cool, but I am not sure how I like the examples. Any of you guys have any experience with this one?



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Have you ever wondered if it is possible to seemlessly morph from one sound to another? To create those stunning effects when an object slowly changes its shape to become another object, but only for sounds? Remember how much fun it was creating new faces from photographs of your friends, trying to get a glimpse of how children may look like from the faces of the parents? Now you can do the same with your favourite sounds! PROSONIQ morph is the world's first realtime audio morphing plug in for your preferred platform. The same people who developed the first automatic audio morphing software for the Atari ST in 1983 and for the Macintosh and the SGI in 1993 are now releasing PROSONIQ morph as world's first audio morphing software running in real time on your favorite host application. But that's not all: remember how difficult it sometimes was matching the individual features of the input pictures to get a good image morph? PROSONIQ morph does it all for you. Based on the same cutting-edge technology employed in all of Prosoniq's products, PROSONIQ morph recognizes important features in your sounds and automatically matches them to create a musically pleasing result. Whether you wish to create vocal lines impossible to be sung by a human, whether you are looking for new ways to create overwhelming sound effects from existing sounds or new instruments that do not exist in the physical world, PROSONIQ morph makes it all possible without the nasty artifacts of traditional signal processing. Where traditional methods end, PROSONIQ morph adds a new and unique dimension for sound design to your canvas of creative tools.

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bachus



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I too am looking for a morphing synth. At present the VirSyn Cube is top on my list. But I'd sure like to hear more examples and some user reports on this type of synth.
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themoors



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ive heard a couple of good reports about this software, but Ive not had the chance to check it out myself yet... theres a demo for the MAC but not the PC...

I wouldnt go off the audio demos alone though, you can only really judge somthing like this when you apply it to your own material.... when i get a chance to play around with it ill let you know how i got on....
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I listened to most of those demos. They aren't very interesting, IMHO.

The VirSyn software looks good for this kind of work. Symbolic Sound's Kyma is probably the best thing in this area because it can combine Morphing with other signal processing effects in real time.

Bachus, if you are into this kind of resynthesis, then you should very serious consider a Kyma. With you background as a programmer, you'd make a Kyma really sing.

My take on morphing, per se, is that it is relatively difficult to do and not all that interesting creatively. Here's the basic idea.

You take the frequency spectrum of one sound and gradually modify that into that of another sound. You do this by using additive analysis/ resynthesis. This is done in Kyma in real time, if you want, maybe in other systems - I don't know. It's similar to vocoding, but instead of 16 bands, you'd use 1000.

To morph, you analyze a clip or sample and get a file that represents the envelopes of the sine waves that make up the sample. This is based on the Fourier principle that any sound can be represented by the sum of sine waves. These envelopes when run through an additive synthesizer, or resynthesis engine, will recreate the original sound.

A key thing about morphing, is that you have to identify places in time to sync these envelopes. If you have two people speaking the same words, for example, you need to manually identify the key timing points on each sound. This is like when you morph photos, you have to identify the nose, eyes, end of chin, tips of ears, top of head, cheek bones etc. The more points you can identify the better the morph, both in sound and in pictures. This is what makes morphing different from cross fades.

Being a Kyma user, I've been exposed to many examples of morphs. The best ones are when the two sounds are doing the same things, like two people reading the same text, or two instruments playing the same melody. Morphing a drum beat into an organ playing a C minor chord can be done, but a cross fade is quite nearly the same thing.

I have seen it used to great effect, again from Kyma examples. There was a radio ad from England where the male voice was morphed into f an old woman as the character in the drama got more and more angry. The impression was that the character morphed into the listeners nagging mother. This kind of thing works well, but of, course, the man and the woman were speaking the same dialog. A cross fade would not have been as effective, but how often do you need this effect?
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bachus



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks mosc;

I'm in the first stages of doing a "Symphony of the Animals" and what I want to do is create morphs between individual animal and instrument sounds. Then I would create a pitch range limited set of transpositions and play them through gigaStudio or transformant(?) them with VariOS (which I don't yet have but is in my budget) . I've looked at Kyama and the only thing that bothers me is the price. The setup for VSL has eaten most of my budget.

By the end of next week I should have one high speed Barton 3000+ raid machine assembled on which to run Sonar, and a slower one, Barton 2700, 360 gig ATA, dedicated to VSL; The third machine will be high speed for soft synths. Looking at Tassman or Reaktor and VirSyn Cube for that. Any comments or suggestions on any of this?

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elektro80
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

All of those softsynths are very good, but they are not really quite the same. Comparing these would be like comparing Buchla, Moog and PPG modulars.
Reaktor might be an interesting toy for you. You can build modules and instruments in a way that is more like the Nord Modular... or even more advanced than the Nord Modular. That said, Reaktor is not a substitution for the Nord Modular or vice versa.
The other products you mention are great too, but different. What do you want to do with the softsynths?

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

You might want to look for reviews of these toys. Try http://www.soundonsound.com/
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
What do you want to do with the softsynths?


Thanks elektro80,

Immediately, I need a quasi bell tone for a theme in a bass line. The tuberise patch on my tx7 is close and I could edit it into shape but the synth's too noisy--I'm going to shed all my old hardware. So I'm looking at Tassman's physical modeling capabilities on that count.

I'm hearing some weird sounds in my head for use in this Symphony I want to write. What comes to mind as being close to what I'm hearing is Subotnick’s "Golden Apples of the Moon", though I haven't heard that in decades. But that sort of thing.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bellish tones with some extra... that might be a job for the PPG Wave 2.x series. This was an excellent early 80s digital synth with wavetables. Some of the Waldorf gear are similar PPG style wavetable synths. And the PPG Wave can also be bought as an VSTi plugin. I owned some PPG Wave synths way back .. and I can recommend it. The interface is easy and pretty comprehensive, but it takes some time to figure out how to "find" the sounds inside the wavetables.
Actually... creating two different but full bell sounds on the PPG... then using one as the carrier and the other as the modulator for vocoding... i recommend using at least something likethe Roland rack vocoder unit for this.. can render very weird but bellish effects. The PPG had 8 separate line outs and these could also be used as 4 stereo pairs.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
've looked at Kyama and the only thing that bothers me is the price.


Yep, that's a big issue. I like it because it can do realtime processing - like 5 channel automatic spacialation. If you aren't into realtime, then you should do quite well with softsynths.

On Sunday, Zynth showed me some of the innards of Reaktor. It is way more complicated than the Nord Modular. I barfed when I saw it. It looks like Max! If you want to have the analog modular experience, I wouldn't go with Reaktor. The Nord is far more intuitive. That said, Reaktor appears to be very powerful because it supports many more synthesis models. If you were able to get up the learning curve, then you'd have a great tool.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

elektro80 wrote:
Actually... creating two different but full bell sounds on the PPG... then using one as the carrier and the other as the modulator for vocoding... i recommend using at least something likethe Roland rack vocoder unit for this.. can render very weird but bellish effects.


By that do you mean the Roland VP9000 (now replaced by the VariOS), or something else?

mosc wrote:
I wouldn't go with Reaktor. The Nord is far more intuitive. That said, Reaktor appears to be very powerful because it supports many more synthesis models.


Actually I've skimmed Reaktors users manual and it didn't scare me, should it have?

Neither of you have mentioned Tassman. I am leaning most heavily in that direction because physical modeling appeals to me intellectually--not a very good reason for choosing an artistic tool I admit. For some reason I haven't been able to download their mp3s. Will try again later today. When my new system is up I'll download the demo. But in the meantime, any thoughts on Tassman and physical modeling.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 7:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bachus wrote:
Actually I've skimmed Reaktors users manual and it didn't scare me, should it have?

No, not you. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:

No, not you. Wink


Thanks for the vote of confidence, but the little grey cells, they are getting very wrinkled. Smile
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themoors



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Tassman is cool, however dont expect the moon on a stick, physical modeling is still nowhere near an exact science... ive not spent enough time on it to get into some serious programing, but from the examples that come with it it clearly has a lot of potential...

If you like headaches check out out MAX/msp , In regards to the potential possiblitys of the instrument I would have though max beats tassman and reaktor hands down... its too much for my poor brain at the moment though...

You also mention the Virsyn plugs, dunno much about cube, but tera 2 is an amazing synth, fully modular (not like reaktor or max where you connect blocks, its all done through a matrix kinda thing) and it covers about 6 different types of synthesis all of which are interchagable.... I love and would marry it if i could...
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I have had some experience with Reaktor and it does have some very cute features. You can build instruments from scratch or use prebuilt blocks. If you are used to analog modulars and weird hybrids, you will probably have ideas about things to do. It is quite true that Reaktor can be hard to learn and this is why NI issued another version of Reaktor in order to use prebuilt ensembles only. You should probably try out some demos before you buy.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 3:48 am    Post subject: Prosoniq Morph Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

We have Prosoniq Morph running in the studio, and I must say I like it very much.

An example: Plug two Spectrasonics loops of identical tempo into the inputs, tweak around, et voilà: infinite source of new, exotic sounding loops. Some really weird stuff, but always grooving.

Or: Plug vocals and a synth pad into it -instant vocoder, but without that "notchy" sound. Great for eerie, vocal-like synth textures.

It's a keeper, IMO.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Quote:
physical modeling is still nowhere near an exact science...

I'm sorry, but this is not true. If it wasn't exact, how could it be implemented computationally?

for further reading:
http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/waveguide/waveguide.html

If, for lack of knowlegde, you cannot correlate causes and effects, that does not mean that these correlations do not exist.

No offense -physcial modelling is very complex and most of us just shoot in the dark when tweaking parameters. Me too. Wink And this can give the image of an "inexact science". But that's just our perception.

I vividly remember my teenage years, where tweaking a DX7 was a very inexact science too. (or is it still? Wink )
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoshin wrote:
I vividly remember my teenage years, where tweaking a DX7 was a very inexact science too. (or is it still? Wink )

Inexact science is not necessarily a bad thing (as long as you know it), sometimes you can come up with unexpected results just by accident.
FM as implemented on Yamaha synths or (even more) on Native Instruments FM7 has too many parameters to be able to correctly predicted what you can accomplish tweaking a knob but, of course, it is not necessarily a shot in the dark.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:41 am    Post subject: Re: Prosoniq Morph Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoshin wrote:
An example: Plug two Spectrasonics loops of identical tempo into the inputs, tweak around, et voilà: infinite source of new, exotic sounding loops. Some really weird stuff, but always grooving.


Shosh, how about posting some examples. Just make some mp3s and use the "Add an Attachment" feature on the post composition page. I'd love to hear this.
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoshin wrote:
Quote:
physical modeling is still nowhere near an exact science...

I'm sorry, but this is not true. If it wasn't exact, how could it be implemented computationally?

for further reading:
http://www-ccrma.stanford.edu/~jos/waveguide/waveguide.html

If, for lack of knowlegde, you cannot correlate causes and effects, that does not mean that these correlations do not exist.


well, on paper, in a aclassroom or lab, the numbers may be 'exact' but there is no way that physical modelling is perfect in the real world..

there is so many factors a mere algorthm cannot express...at least not yet

the devices emulated are very complex and also exhibit chaotic characterstics that are nearly impossible to fully emulate with the current computing power


so, i think it is a little naive to suggest that in 2004, emulation is virtually perfect..

this logic is common among theorticians but perhaps these individuals lack real world experience ..great at math, but ears are not machines

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 6:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

@sudden;

We obviously have a different conception of what physical modeling is all about.

If you regard the convincing emulation of traditional instruments as the ultimate goal of physical modeling technology, then yes I agree, we are not accurate.

Science is always an approximation. PhM is no exception. If this makes it "being far from exact science" , then unfortunately ALL science is far from being exact science.

However -I personally have never understood the point of emulating traditional instruments with synthesizers anyway. Why not just get the real thing? Weren't synthesizers initially created to find NEW timbres?

I find it interesting and very worthwhile to understand physical properties of acoustic resonating mediums and to translate them into synthesis concepts, but not for their own sake.
It's more that the implementation of these concepts yields new algorithms which result in far more dynamic and texturally expressive sounds than the more traditional synthesizer patches, producing very lively and organic timbres.

And yes, they CAN behave chaotically, and unfortunately often do so. This is actually the hardest part of phD sound-design: coming up with a meaningful parametrisation of the model that will produce musical results and not chaos (or silence). (Everybody who ever dared to dig deep in the "expert mode" of the Yamaha VL1 knows what I mean.)

These models, their behaviour and mathematical description, IS exact science.

However -If the model approximizes the physical properties of -let's say- a saxophone well enough in order to sound convincing, will always remain debatable. (Purists are never satisfied.)

But I'd rather invite a good saxophonist into the studio for that anyway. Wink
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2004 9:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoshin wrote:

But I'd rather invite a good saxophonist into the studio for that anyway. Wink


yeah, me too hehe

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoshin wrote:

However -If the model approximizes the physical properties of -let's say- a saxophone well enough in order to sound convincing, will always remain debatable. (Purists are never satisfied.)

But I'd rather invite a good saxophonist into the studio for that anyway. Wink

I agree with you about having a good sax player instead of a good sounding virtual instrument but I happen to own a Yamaha MU100R featuring monophonic VL synthesis that I love because even if the approximation to an acoustic instrument is highly debatable it's still very expressive especially if played using a breath controller (much more than any sample based instrument).
Here there are a few links for more about VL synthesis:

http://www.windsynth.org/iwsa_labs/patch_programming/prog_techniques/VL1_Guide/

http://members.aol.com/whitfiel/windfaq.htm

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

shoshin wrote:
But I'd rather invite a good saxophonist into the studio for that anyway. Wink

One bad human saxophonist beats ten excellent virutal ones. That is because for most of us, the value is in the experience of creating the music, not in selling it. Like Cyndi Lauper said so well, "Money changes everything."
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2004 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
shoshin wrote:
But I'd rather invite a good saxophonist into the studio for that anyway. Wink

One bad human saxophonist beats ten excellent virutal ones. That is because for most of us, the value is in the experience of creating the music, not in selling it. Like Cyndi Lauper said so well, "Money changes everything."


not sure i see the connection there..but interesting anyway

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