electro-music.com   Dedicated to experimental electro-acoustic
and electronic music
 
    Front Page  |  Articles  |  Radio
 |  Media  |  Forum  |  Wiki  |  Links  |  Store
Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
 FAQFAQ   CalendarCalendar   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   LinksLinks
 RegisterRegister   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in  Chat RoomChat Room 
Live streaming at radio.electro-music.com

  host / artist show at your time
  PHOBoS presents Sim Biosys (EM mix)
  PHOBoS Tales of the Golden Teacher
  PHOBoS presents Music by HrastProgrammer (feat. Terence McKenna)
  Faux Pas Quartet and friends Music From Last Thursday
Please visit the chat
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » General Discussion
Rack mount VA for filter sweeps (Like Edgar's Arp2600 patch)
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 1 [20 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:48 am    Post subject: Rack mount VA for filter sweeps (Like Edgar's Arp2600 patch)
Subject description: Is there a machine that can emulate that chirping decending sweep?
Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Im new to programming synths, and need help finding one that can emulate this patch, preferably a rackmount controlled by a keyboard controller with mod/pitch wheels. And I think I understand some of the mechanics of how the Frankenstein filter sweep works by looking at some diagrams (Clock->Noise->S&H->EG->VCF) or something like that. What exactly are we hearing in that sound besides the 24db filter sweeping, down?

What components in a VA synth do I need to look for to be able to try to emulate that patch? It doesn't have to sound exact, just something similar. Would, say, a MS2000R be able to do it something like it, a MT-32, or a Pulse?

TIA - Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Try to search the forum for DikMik

You are talking about the late 60s -late 70s spacy chirpy synth noises, right?

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ya, its the sound that starts high and "slides" lower with constant chirping, over a period of about 15 seconds, it seems to have a .5hz modulation to it that gives it a "pumping" sound along with the chirps, at the very end of the sound on the recording you can barely hear the (white/pink) noise generator...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 1633
Location: Tennessee
Audio files: 8

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To me it sounds like the filter is self oscillating and is being swept by an envelope.
_________________
Mark Mahoney
Kingsport, Tennessee
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
http://cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck2
http://www.limitedwave.com/subterraneous/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If you follow these threads you will learn to make that one and similar ones.
This sound of yours is part of a group of ( vintage ) patches that were fairly easy to set up on analog pre-80s synths.

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-7436.html

and

http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-8008.html

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks, thats exactly what im looking for, I should be able to figure out if a new VA can do it by looking at the sig flow....

but... what the heck does dikmik stand for??? LOL

---edit---

Nope, after listening to those samples, thats not the sound, its not those spacey bleeps. The only place Ive heard it on is Edgar Winters Frankinstein recording just before the drum solo, actually, as a kid I remember playing with a moog at Ace Music Store in North Miami and accidentally coming across the patch, kids do the craziest things...

Last edited by OldManAndTheSea on Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dikmik? read those threads and you will figure it out..

Nah.. I can tell you..

This type of patches got this nickname because these sounds were were all over the first Hawkwind LPs and dikmik was hawkwinds osc/synth/noise box operator. If you were into early 70s psychedelic space rock you would know these sounds as dikmiks. Later on Tangerine Dream figured out how to use their synths. ( By Exit they forgot how to use them.. but that is another story .. fitting title though)

_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i think that sound is a noise source going into a high resonance filter modulated by a long envelope.

here is a small example (not perfect, but self playing) that you can listen to and work with in the g2 demo (www.clavia.se).
deknow


squelch.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  squelch.pch2
 Filesize:  1.13 KB
 Downloaded:  775 Time(s)

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

of course, the arturia 2600 software synth can probably do this as well. there is a good video of the edgar winter band doing this song on the dvd "the old grey whistle test", and you might be able to see the 2600 well enough to see what is going on (although i have been told that these performances weren't striclty live).

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

deknow wrote:
i think that sound is a noise source going into a high resonance filter modulated by a long envelope.


Hmmmm, maybe if a synth doesnt have a noise source, but had an external in, I could run a (homemade) noise source into the VCF, as long as I could mod the VCF with the EG, the EG->VCF patch would be key.

---edit---

Ok Ive done some research, it seems that to make this sound the VCF cut off frequency is adjusted by hand, the ARP manual say set at 10Khz and move slowly down to 100Hz, it is resonate. And there seems to be some "gating" involved, it may be done by a LFO, but Im not sure. Noise is involved and thats what seems to feed the VCF. Thanks for everyone input. I guess experimentation is the key here.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 1633
Location: Tennessee
Audio files: 8

PostPosted: Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is this close? I did this on my Voyager.


Frankenstein.mp3
 Description:
Simplified Frankenstien.

Download
 Filename:  Frankenstein.mp3
 Filesize:  279.18 KB
 Downloaded:  802 Time(s)


_________________
Mark Mahoney
Kingsport, Tennessee
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
http://cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck2
http://www.limitedwave.com/subterraneous/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 3:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice! Very Happy Pretty close! How did you do it, what modules? Do I hear 2 VCOs and a VCF sweep, self rezin? Thanks - mike!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 1633
Location: Tennessee
Audio files: 8

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I started off with a self resonating filter by putting the res all the way on. The cutoff is set fairly low. I turned off all oscillators. I used an envelope generator to sweep the filter. The attack was off, the decay set high, the sustain off (or set to where you want the lowest note to settle) and the release was low. I used the volume envelope, because I wanted to use the envelope filter for the chirpy quack.

Now the tricky part: To get the chirp I had to get the filter envelope to retrigger with the LFO. I set the Voyager to accept an external gate which turns off the keyboard as the trigger. The V'ger has a switch that does that and allows the S&H to be used as the env. trigger. But by doing this the gate is constantly on. So I took the keyboard's gate output (via the Voyager's VX 351 outbox) and fed it back into the Envelpe gate. Thus, whenever you pressed a key you would open the gate and the sweep would start from the beginning.

After posting my above sample I went back and experimented a bit. You can eliminate the vol. envelope as the sweep and just tweak the cutoff knob yourself. I'm sure that's what Winter did. You can also tweak with the env. generator setting to change the chirp to a wet quack.

This was a fun excercise. Oh, and that rumble/noise in background of my sample is from the horrible soundcard of my laptop. It's exaggerated because I didn't bother to lift the ground.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

So for me to emulate this on a (sub $400) genertic rack VA, I seem to need a S&H which most of those are missing. (And the reason for this exersise is to determine what specific synth componets I need to make this sound)

Let me summarize so i understand:

1 The Low pass VCF is set to self rez, the "chirp" is the rez frequency
2 It is the VCF cutoff that is being swept from higher to lower (in Hz)
3 EG sustain ramp controls the VCF (most synths can set up this patch)
4 Or I can manually move a midi fader and move the VCF point lower in freq.

Now this is where Im still a little fuzzy (the tricky part!)

What part does the LFO play? I think it is used to set the repeat frequency of the chirping sound, true? What does the LFO feed?

If the LFO feeds the S&H, it is used only to re-trigger the, ummm EG?

Can I do this without a S&H with an external trigger?

When it retriggers, a sound is made at the point that the VCF is at which is set by EG (sustain slope)

I think. LOL

---edit---

oops - wrong terminology - I meant Freq, not cutoff concerning the VCF.
and not Sustain, but Decay with the EG.

Last edited by OldManAndTheSea on Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:47 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
deknow



Joined: Sep 15, 2004
Posts: 1307
Location: Leominster, MA (USA)
G2 patch files: 15

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

again, all of this can be done with the free nord modular demo, so i don't see any reason to spend $400 just to experement with. that said, you could come close to this with virutally any of the va synths out there.

deknow
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ya, but this is for playing live, Id use the synth for other bit part leads as well. Simple setup - a string/organ rom machine for fills, and a VA synth for vintage synth "sounds" like this one, and other leads, each controlled by a midi keyboard. Just enough to add some authenticity to songs... I dont want to drag around 2 or 3 keyboards, just a small one and have everything else in a rack. Its the less is more, and i dont want to carry anything i dont have to in my old age syndrome.

Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elektro80
Site Admin


Joined: Mar 25, 2003
Posts: 21977
Location: Norway
Audio files: 14

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 8:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Slightly more than 400USD, but the Creamware Minimax ASB woodensided minimoog clone is rather nice.
_________________
A Charity Pantomime in aid of Paranoid Schizophrenics descended into chaos yesterday when someone shouted, "He's behind you!"

MySpace
SoundCloud
Flickr
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 1633
Location: Tennessee
Audio files: 8

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Let's see if I can condense this procedure:
1. Set LPF to self resonate by having cutoff off low and Res high.
2. Turn off oscillators.
3. Have the Cutoff modulated by a Env. Generator. Attack 0, Decay medium high, Sustain 0 (or some low setting), Release Low. (Or you could do this manually by sweeping the cutoff by hand.)
4. Set Filter Envelope Generator to make the filter chirp to taste
5. Have your LFO with either S&H or square wave trigger the Filter Envelope. Set LFO speed to taste.

I would think most good VAs could handle this. I would say the Ion ($599) could do it or a used Waldorf Q. The trick is to get the filter envelope to be triggered by the LFO. I think the Cremeware minimoog clone could do it as well. I have read it sounds great but has some major issues in Poly mode. Surely they'll get that under control soon with an update. Mono mode works great.

On my Voyager I had the keyboard gate turning the envelope gate on and off. That probably wasn't necessary, but it was what I came up with on the fly to get it to work on my system. There's probably an easier way to do it.

_________________
Mark Mahoney
Kingsport, Tennessee
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
http://cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck2
http://www.limitedwave.com/subterraneous/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
OldManAndTheSea



Joined: Dec 21, 2005
Posts: 8
Location: Seacoast NH, USA

PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2005 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great explaination Mark, thanks. It's starting to sink in, its tough without the hardware to play with. Ive studied a few low cost synths (like the ms200br) and its virtual patching capibility, and i dont think it can do that sound, either can the novation a-station i dont think, both because of the special triggering. But Ive stumbled upon ones like the Red Square, and by your patch description, i can see clearly that it can do it, but at $1000, nice synth though. The Nord Modulars look promising with virtual patching, espcialy the rack unit. I want to thank you for putting the effort into helping out, Ive learn alot in the last couple of days, for one, not all synths are a like!

Merry Christmas All,
Mike
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mohoyoho



Joined: Dec 03, 2003
Posts: 1633
Location: Tennessee
Audio files: 8

PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2005 9:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

No problem. I enjoyed working on it. Check out the Ion by Alesis. A lot of bang for the buck. A used Waldorf Q would be advisable. That's an amazing digital synth. There's very little it can't do.

By the way, I am originally from the seacoast of Massachusetts. A little town called Cohasset.

_________________
Mark Mahoney
Kingsport, Tennessee
http://www.reverbnation.com/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/markmahoney
www.cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck
http://cdbaby.com/cd/mmahoneympeck2
http://www.limitedwave.com/subterraneous/
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic
Page 1 of 1 [20 Posts]
View unread posts
View new posts in the last week
Mark the topic unread :: View previous topic :: View next topic
 Forum index » Instruments and Equipment » General Discussion
Jump to:  

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
e-m mkii

Please support our site. If you click through and buy from
our affiliate partners, we earn a small commission.


Forum with support of Syndicator RSS
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Copyright © 2003 through 2009 by electro-music.com - Conditions Of Use