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 Forum index » DIY Hardware and Software » Lunettas - circuits inspired by Stanley Lunetta
Ring Modulators
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fluxmonkey



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:16 pm    Post subject: Ring Modulators
Subject description: or x-quadrant multipliers
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2 versions from the net:

The MS20 ringmodulator

ARP 2-quadrant multiplier

I've built one of 'em (forget which), and it sounds great...

bbob
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cool, you are getting into this. These circuits aren't comparable to a fancy analog circuit like the AD530 or whatever, but they are lots of fun and have a unique sound of there own.
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The little passive ring modulatos made from a ring of 4 Ge diodes and a couple of little audio transformers work great too.

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.
From http://kraus.co.nz




This little 4 gate circuit works great. Stan Lunetta used the term pseudo ring modulators for things like this. The use of the word pseudo is important, IMHO, because it shows we aren't striving for real ring modulators, but something different and something that is OK on it's own.

No need for resistors, transistors, diodes, or anything else. Just wire this little gem up direct to your front panel with banana jacks and you're in business.

A G2 patch that works with the free G2 demo give you an idea what to expect.


4 gate ring mod.png
 Description:
4 gate pseudo ring modulator. Works great in any Lunetta
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 Viewed:  18704 Time(s)

4 gate ring mod.png



4 gate ring mod.pch2
 Description:
4 gate pseudo ring modulator to demo a circuit one could use in a Lunetta. Good on it's own though.

Download
 Filename:  4 gate ring mod.pch2
 Filesize:  945 Bytes
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bugbrand



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I've used the 4077 XNOR (Exclusive Nor) for quasi-ringmod for a long time now - I wonder how it'd compare to the schems posted above?! The 4077 is a quad chip so you get four XNOR gates in one chip - four (quasi) ringmods!

(quite possibly one of the circuits above is the 'equivalent' circuit of an XNOR gate -- its been a few years since I learned some logic stuff at college)

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

bugbrand wrote:

(quite possibly one of the circuits above is the 'equivalent' circuit of an XNOR gate -- its been a few years since I learned some logic stuff at college)


Quite possible Laughing .. just spell out the truth tables .. it's easy really.

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slabman



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PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:47 pm    Post subject: digital frequency shifter Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Great forum!

Hmmm.... In the analogue world, you can build a frequency shifter with a quadrature oscillator and two 4-quadrant modulators. So - could this be done in digital with 90-degree out of phase square waves and x-OR gates? And, would there be any point - I mean would it sound good?

Also, somewhere in this forum, I must mention pseudo-random binary shift registers - used for white noise but also arcade style sounds - and Walsh functions that can generate any arbitrary waveform from a handful of CMS pulses
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GlassX



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PostPosted: Wed Feb 13, 2008 5:41 pm    Post subject: Re: digital frequency shifter Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

slabman wrote:
Hmmm.... In the analogue world, you can build a frequency shifter with a quadrature oscillator and two 4-quadrant modulators. So - could this be done in digital with 90-degree out of phase square waves and x-OR gates? And, would there be any point - I mean would it sound good?


Here's a simple circuit idea for a quadrature squerewave oscillator made with an NE567

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

I'm anxious... I'll by some NE567s tomorrow!!!!! Razz
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jnuaury



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i just built the 4 gate psuedo ring mod...
and then after returning to the forum i actually worked out the truth tables and the circuit is logically equivalent to a single XOR gate or the inverse of mr bug's XNOR pseudo ringmods

and of course i would have discovered this by clicking the first link in this thread and scrolling down

i havent had enough time to thoroughly test it out yet
but for now lets assume that using 4 gates will sound 4 times as good
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

welcome jnuaury

Filling out truth tables is always a good exercise Laughing

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mosc
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

It's nice to have several ways to do the same thing because you can use whatever you have in your parts cache.
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Scott Stites
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice thing about the XOR devices is you get four of them in a package. Fits hand in hand with all the oscillators you can yank off of a CD40106 or whatever. Of course, a lot of electronic cymbals use this for "shimmer". You can get a pretty decent gong sound out of a setup like that, among other bizarro stuff.....
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rubendelacosta



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Probably off topic...and probably a dumb question but...

Can any of this circuits be feeded with general audio in put?( i'm experimenting with some radios, so "X in" one radio and "Y in" another radio signal).

Thanks, ruben
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jnuaury



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 15, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

yes, you can out other signals through these chips
some quirky things can happen

you can always use a 4049 to "square up" your input signal too
this works great if you want to run an external source into a divider or use your source to modulate the lunetta style non-vco oscillators
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rubendelacosta



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

well....that schematic takes 3 NAND and 1 AND gate...right?
sorry, i'm kind of new to cmos logic.

thanks,
ruben.

edit:( i'm talking about the schematic that mosc posted)
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

rubendelacosta wrote:
well....that schematic takes 3 NAND and 1 AND gate...right?


That is how it's drawn indeed, and it makes an XNOR this way.

An XNOR is an XOR with inverted output, or it's output is 0 when exactly one input is 1.

When you build it using four NANDS you'll get an XOR which make it's output 1 only when exactly one input has a 1.

There is no sonic difference between the two. Have a look at the 4070 and 4077 chips as well Very Happy

A simple way to figure out these circuits is using thruth tables, like :


Code:
Basic truth tables :


AND :             OR:             XOR:

A | B | out       A | B | out     A | B | out
--+---+----       --+---+----     --+---+----
0 | 0 |  0        0 | 0 |  0      0 | 0 |  0
0 | 1 |  0        0 | 1 |  1      0 | 1 |  1
1 | 0 |  0        1 | 0 |  1      1 | 0 |  1
1 | 1 |  1        1 | 1 |  1      1 | 1 |  0


and their inverse forms


NAND :            NOR:            XNOR:

A | B | out       A | B | out     A | B | out
--+---+----       --+---+----     --+---+----
0 | 0 |  1        0 | 0 |  1      0 | 0 |  1
0 | 1 |  1        0 | 1 |  0      0 | 1 |  0
1 | 0 |  1        1 | 0 |  0      1 | 0 |  0
1 | 1 |  0        1 | 1 |  0      1 | 1 |  1


Using these for the following circuit (using four NANDs):

                             +-----+
        +--------------------|     |     Y
        |                    |  &  +o----+
        |   +-----+    +-----|     |     |    +-----+
  A  ---+---|     |    |     +-----+     +----|     |
            |  &  +o---+ X                    |  &  |o---- Out
  B  ---+---|     |    |     +-----+     +----|     |
        |   +-----+    +-----|     |     |    +-----+
        |                    |  &  +o----+
        +--------------------|     |     Z
                             +-----+


A | B | X | Y | Z | out
--+---+---+---+---+----
0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 |  0
0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 0 |  1
1 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 |  1
1 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 1 |  0

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beavis



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 7:29 am    Post subject: Re: digital frequency shifter Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

GlassX wrote:
slabman wrote:
Hmmm.... In the analogue world, you can build a frequency shifter with a quadrature oscillator and two 4-quadrant modulators. So - could this be done in digital with 90-degree out of phase square waves and x-OR gates? And, would there be any point - I mean would it sound good?


Here's a simple circuit idea for a quadrature squerewave oscillator made with an NE567

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

I'm anxious... I'll by some NE567s tomorrow!!!!! Razz


The 567 is a great little chip--so many bizarre things you can do with it.

This is my latest 567 based circuit:

Posted Image, might have been reduced in size. Click Image to view fullscreen.

If you want to dig in to some others....:
http://www.geocities.com/tpe123/folkurban/fuzz/thing.gif

http://personal.inet.fi/koti/holmberg/schem.html

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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2008 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

in that quick doodle of the ringmod with the transformers, what does the carrier signal do? Is it like a control voltage?
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RF



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That would be the second input signal.
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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ah, so it is true ring mod multiplication. i have read people say it works but is so so, any chance theres a sound sample out there? Im really considering using this passive ring mod application in my next big project. Mainly because it look like a space saver, despite the huge transformers.

Also, BEAVIS, im very intrigued by your 567 trem/ringmod circuit you posted here. What kind of voltage does it run off? Could the Vcc be just a control voltage input and it could run off of that? Like a powerful sine wave?

Also, sound samples?

I really want to include a ringmod circuit into my next project, but am very concerned about it being able to run on lower voltages or batteries. I have no idea how to work with power supplies yet. My next project i have for seen as running off of like 8 or 9 ninevolt batteries, one to each modular.
Better ideas?
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mosc
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:


I really want to include a ringmod circuit into my next project, but am very concerned about it being able to run on lower voltages or batteries.


Then the passive RM is the one to use - no power. Smile

BTW, for most purposes, the passive RM will sound great. It is a great beginners project. The transformers don't have to be big either.

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stolenfat



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

is there any chance that a pot could be added to control the amount of fx? it seems to me that this is kinda all or nothing? could it be added the carrier signal to control the amount of multiplication?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

stolenfat wrote:
is there any chance that a pot could be added to control the amount of fx? it seems to me that this is kinda all or nothing? could it be added the carrier signal to control the amount of multiplication?


Building one will be self-illuminating. But simply put, if there is nothing on one input there will be nothing on the output.

X * Y = Z

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Mikmo



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Just remember that you MUST use Germanium diodes. Silicon diodes will not work.
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-minus-



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PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Bit of an old thread, BUT....

I was wondering whether pull down resistors are needed on input A and B of the 4011 NAND ring modulator mosc posted further up this thread? If so, are these the only pull down resistors needed? Probably a really easy to answer question for you guys! Embarassed ...I have tried this on breadboard and the pull down resistors on A and B seem to help when only one signal is plugged in... before the second signal is connected. I guess I've answered my own question in a way.

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

With the 4011 pseudo ring modulator do you get frequency doubling if you put the same signal into both input gates, like on a normal ring modulator?

I used to have an arp odyssey which used something like this, but you couldn't patch the inputs (they were fixed to the squarewave on each osc).

Also, re: germanium diodes in the passive ring modulator - you can use silicon. I have one using silicon that works. I have been meaning to sub in some germanium, but I haven't yet, so I can't say the difference, but silicon definitely does work.

-minus- wrote:
Bit of an old thread, BUT....

I was wondering whether pull down resistors are needed on input A and B of the 4011 NAND ring modulator mosc posted further up this thread? If so, are these the only pull down resistors needed? Probably a really easy to answer question for you guys! Embarassed ...I have tried this on breadboard and the pull down resistors on A and B seem to help when only one signal is plugged in... before the second signal is connected. I guess I've answered my own question in a way.

Thanks!


I think you would only need them if you don't have something hardwired to it. It's been my experience that any input gate you will be leaving open should have pulldown resistors.
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