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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
DX7 to G2 study.
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:14 am    Post subject: DX7 to G2 study.
Subject description: Error or G2 Bug??
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I am currently doing a little (home propelled) study on the DX7 modules in the G2 and some of the FM law behind them in the process I stumbled across a bug/difference between the modules and the real X series machines..

On the G2's DX7 op the AM level which has a range of 0 - 7 allows you to control the amplitude of the operator in realtime, if the AM level is set to 3 and the input value is 0, you still have some operator present.. on the X series machines this is apprently not the case. Raising the AM level to 4 makes the G2's DX7 style op behave accordingly (an input of 0, zeros the amplitude of the op).

Anyone else spotted this one?

Are there any other anomolies/differences (between the real Dx7 ops and the G2's versions) I should be aware of as part of my studies?

Having never owned a Dx7 nor used one, I am some what hoping that the differences are minimal or at worst easy to work around as part of my study. (it's complicated enough!!)

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: DX7 to G2 study.
Subject description: Error or G2 Bug??
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iPassenger wrote:
Are there any other anomolies/differences (between the real Dx7 ops and the G2's versions) I should be aware of as part of my studies?


The original DX envelope rate/level relationship had a bug(?) which was exploited in some factory ROM presets. "Water Garden" plays a little arpeggio on each note. The 'delay' part of the envelope is made by setting L1 near 0 and adjusting T1 for the delay time. The L1 and T1 need to be adjusted significantly on the G2 to get a similar effect.
AFAIK no DX emulation reproduces the exact DX Rate/Level behavior.

Also the G2 contains no exact functional replacement for the DX pitch envelope.
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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Cheers Ian.

Presumably the Multi-Env would do though?

Must say I am having a lot of fun and headaches learning all this FM stuff. Been making bells and hand drums this evening. Smile

Amazing power but some of the maths kind of makes you want to reach for good old familiar subtractive synthesis. Smile

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:
Presumably the Multi-Env would do though?


The multi env can make the same shaped envelope for sure. The issue is with translating between the ms time scale of the G2, and the rate system of the DX envelope.
On the G2, R2 = 30ms will always take 30ms.

On the DX, R2 = 85 might take 30ms if the delta between L4 and L1 is 90.
If the delta is 80, it might take 23ms.

It only makes the automated conversion of DX patches that use the pitch EG tricky.

One of the good things about the G2 was not being boxed into the DX architecture. If you need 8 operators, patch them in. If you only need 2 then just use 2.
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Wout Blommers



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PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2008 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

ian-s wrote:
... One of the good things about the G2 was not being boxed into the DX architecture. If you need 8 operators, patch them in. If you only need 2 then just use 2.
Isn't that the basic idea of the Nord Modulars Wink

Wout
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varice



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Re: DX7 to G2 study.
Subject description: Error or G2 Bug??
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iPassenger wrote:
I am currently doing a little (home propelled) study on the DX7 modules in the G2 and some of the FM law behind them in the process I stumbled across a bug/difference between the modules and the real X series machines..

On the G2's DX7 op the AM level which has a range of 0 - 7 allows you to control the amplitude of the operator in realtime, if the AM level is set to 3 and the input value is 0, you still have some operator present.. on the X series machines this is apprently not the case. Raising the AM level to 4 makes the G2's DX7 style op behave accordingly (an input of 0, zeros the amplitude of the op).

Anyone else spotted this one?

Are there any other anomolies/differences (between the real Dx7 ops and the G2's versions) I should be aware of as part of my studies?

Having never owned a Dx7 nor used one, I am some what hoping that the differences are minimal or at worst easy to work around as part of my study. (it's complicated enough!!)


Has this been spotted before? Maybe. I have noticed that some of the G2 patches produced by the dx2g2 converter tool have AMod settings of 4, even though the DX7 only allowed a max setting of 3. 3phase worked on the G2 model for this tool, so maybe he had to use a value of 4 to get the converted patches to sound correct. But, I did not notice any specific mention of this problem while browsing the NM2G2 Conversion subforum. The factory DX emulation patches in Bank 4 of the G2 never use any AMod settings above 3.

Is it a G2 bug? I don't have a DX7, so I can't do a test to compare the AMod settings of the two synths. The G2 manual and online help about the Operator module does give Clavia a little wiggle room by stating that using the same parameters as on the DX7 will result in a "very close approximation" of the DX7 sound. But how close, may be in the ear of the beholder. Also, Clavia does not specify what input values will result in what output levels with a particular AMod setting. So, technically I guess that it could not be labeled a bug. Good thing of course, in any case a G2 patch can be easily tweaked to get the desired AMod result from the operator.

Have fun with the FM synthesis study! As Mr. Spock would say, FM synthesis is - fascinating. Very Happy

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

all this talk of the DX modules got me thinking I should use them for something ... the way I see it, it could be like a "new OS" to use modules I tend not to use ...
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

dasz wrote:
all this talk of the DX modules got me thinking I should use them for something ... the way I see it, it could be like a "new OS" to use modules I tend not to use ...


I have never actually used the G2 DX operators for new FM patches - I use mainly the OscPM instead. But, I don't patch much FM stuff these days. I got most of FM bug out of me by patching the AFM engine of my Yamaha SY77 back in the 90's.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Well the way i look at it, the g2 is pretty much the best DX module built to date, what with all the extra patching and routing options...although the native instruments one was also very good.

Varice,

I also used the PM osc for most of my fm duties until recently. There are some adavnatges to using the DX modules though as everything is already patched up in a single module. Unfortunately I'm not at home at moment and am stuck with the demo..

I did this one the other day on the demo. You should probably switch it to poly. first 3 vars used:


2008-12-05 Super Chilled FM.pch2
 Description:

Download
 Filename:  2008-12-05 Super Chilled FM.pch2
 Filesize:  3.04 KB
 Downloaded:  672 Time(s)


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:
Well the way i look at it, the g2 is pretty much the best DX module built to date, what with all the extra patching and routing options...although the native instruments one was also very good.

Varice,

I also used the PM osc for most of my fm duties until recently. There are some adavnatges to using the DX modules though as everything is already patched up in a single module. Unfortunately I'm not at home at moment and am stuck with the demo..

I did this one the other day on the demo. You should probably switch it to poly. first 3 vars used:


Yes, Clavia did make the G2 capable of being a super DX modular synth!

I will give this patch a try tomorrow. It's way past my bedtime.

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fac



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I find FM synthesis (not the math behind it) to be actually easier to understand and explain to my students than subtractive synthesis. In my opinion, the idea that FM is difficult is a historical one: subtractive synths had one-knob-per-function interfaces that made them very accessible. The first FM synth, however, had a 2 line screen and a bunch of buttons. I can't imagine how tedious and boring it must have been.

Ok, so maybe one knob per parameter on a DX7 would be overkill, but why not have the knobs corresponding to a single operator's parameters, and six buttons to switch between operators, or something like that?

The thing is that nobody ever came up with a decent interface (other than PC editors) for FM synths... until Clavia did, and then Yamaha with the DX200. Both the Nord Lead 3 and the G2 are great for FM synthesis (though the Nord Lead 3 can only deal with 4-ops) because they make it much accessible.

I also used to have a DX-200. Great sounding box, and while you had to use the PC editor for in-depth editing, the knobs allowed a lot of sound modeling themselves. Unfortunately, it was so cheaply made that the knobs were quite steppy and the main data wheel was unreliable, plus it had a bug in the sequencer, so I ended up selling it (and kind of regret it).

I also have a FS1R, which is simply the best sounding FM synth ever, but even with a PC editor, it's quite daunting.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

iPassenger wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not at home at moment and am stuck with the demo..

I did this one the other day on the demo. You should probably switch it to poly. first 3 vars used:


Very nice patch, makes a slow and dreamy FM pad.

suggestion: move the delay, chorus, and reverb to the FX section. This will increase the poly voice count to 15 on an expanded G2.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fac wrote:

The thing is that nobody ever came up with a decent interface (other than PC editors) for FM synths... until Clavia did, and then Yamaha with the DX200. Both the Nord Lead 3 and the G2 are great for FM synthesis (though the Nord Lead 3 can only deal with 4-ops) because they make it much accessible.


Interesting point. I can imagine those 80s designers at Yamaha going: "No longer will we need these crude knobs or switches, the future is all digital with slick, colourful plastic overlays and those gorgeous LCD displays." Laughing Your post urges me to try setting up some FM patches on my old NM Key...

/Stefan

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fac wrote:
... (though the Nord Lead 3 can only deal with 4-ops) ...
Using 4 Slots one can use 16 operators in a Performance.

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iPassenger



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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

varice wrote:
iPassenger wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not at home at moment and am stuck with the demo..

I did this one the other day on the demo. You should probably switch it to poly. first 3 vars used:


Very nice patch, makes a slow and dreamy FM pad.

suggestion: move the delay, chorus, and reverb to the FX section. This will increase the poly voice count to 15 on an expanded G2.


Cheers. Smile

Yeah, I normally do that at home but when working on the demo i prefer to keep everything in the mono.. means I don't have two bits of screen to split between and it is easier to see how much cpu juice I have left to squeeze out of it. (no adding)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Antimon wrote:
fac wrote:

The thing is that nobody ever came up with a decent interface (other than PC editors) for FM synths... until Clavia did, and then Yamaha with the DX200. Both the Nord Lead 3 and the G2 are great for FM synthesis (though the Nord Lead 3 can only deal with 4-ops) because they make it much accessible.


Interesting point. I can imagine those 80s designers at Yamaha going: "No longer will we need these crude knobs or switches, the future is all digital with slick, colourful plastic overlays and those gorgeous LCD displays." Laughing Your post urges me to try setting up some FM patches on my old NM Key...

/Stefan


Hmmm.. sounds fantastic doesn't it.. Very Happy The future, now!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wout Blommers wrote:
Using 4 Slots one can use 16 operators in a Performance.

Wout


Umm.. I wouldn't actually consider that as 16-op FM since there's no inter-modulation between all 16 operators, but yes, one could make some very complex sounds by using more than one slot.

I really need more time to play with my NL3. And my G2. And all my other synths.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

fac wrote:
Umm.. I wouldn't actually consider that as 16-op FM since there's no inter-modulation between all 16 operators, but yes, one could make some very complex sounds by using more than one slot.
Using a 4 Slot Performance in the G2... at least 32 Operator with inter-modulation? Shocked
Quote:
I really need more time to play with my NL3. And my G2. And all my other synths.
It's frustrating, I know! And you'll have to go on living too!!! Very Happy

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Using inter slot bussing you can easily get a 64 op Dx machine.. if you wanted!?
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Hi all,

Its too long ago .. but its true that you cant set the level parameter 1:1..

but its however possible to get very identical conditions regarding the DX parameters between DX7 and G2.. by using the Value 4 in the levels..

Bigger problem in th conversion was the balistics of the LFo and glide, and especially the pitch eg... which is pretty special on the DX7

dx sounds that relate very much on this features like some special fx sounds can fail by the DX converter written by Matt Gerassimov..

However..the majority of the original DX sounds translate very well...


Some info

DX G2
AmodSense
0 >> 0
1 >> 2
2 >> 3
3 >> 4

and one of the base patches the converter can use..

basically it sets the parameters for a given base patch..so a base patch for the converter can be altered as long the parameter destinations stay in place..

the stuff in the fx area is a pure extra that is not involved or necessary in the conversion


dx7.pch2
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 10:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yeah, that is the patch I have been using.

Cheers for the amod conversion chart.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

a few months ago, I have seen a thread talking about a freeware able to translate DX7 programs into G2 patch file. Does anybody know if it's still available?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

coyote14 wrote:
a few months ago, I have seen a thread talking about a freeware able to translate DX7 programs into G2 patch file. Does anybody know if it's still available?


It's in the zip at http://electro-music.com/forum/topic-15405.html (dx2g2.py)

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