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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
wave shape to overtone partials
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steampump



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:08 pm    Post subject: wave shape to overtone partials Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Is there a simple programm on pc who can convert the shape of a wave into overtone partials?
And is maybe able to track an overton thru a sample?
Sounds a bite like resynthesis . I know we cannot do this with the G2 but the data could be usefull to create new sounds.

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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

That´s a facinating question! Never heard of something like it, if it doesn´t exist somebody should give it a go. It would proably involve lots of fft and some convolution but I´m missing the realy clever step you´ll need to go from a impulse-response to a waveshaping curve.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Whoops, I misread and am going the wrong way. Isn´t what you are asking for simply a specialised spectrum analiser?
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Rix



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Wave to overtone, or time domain to frequency domain is the Fourier transform.
there are many programs that can do it, like Cooledit Pro or the WinScope program mentioned elsewhere in the forum.

But a spectrum is not a static thing, it changes over time.
A 3D plot of a spectrum, with time, frequency and amplitude axes is a good tool for analysing sound.

Richard
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steampump



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

The idee is to use the base of Acxel technogie in a rough way but not in real time to analise a sound and the recreat it in additive synthesis like on a Kawai K5. If i can have the envellope shape of each major ovetone , it should be easy to recreate the sound (or a fake).

I have cool edit 2000 . I first need the meaning of the datas and how to convert them in
F1,F2 etc

Well a 3D display of the data would be easier...

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Last edited by steampump on Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I think you are reinventing the phase vocoder, albeit a specialsed one. The problem isn´t in the analysis, the problem is usually what to do with the data once you get it out. tracking a single overtone isn´t that hard; you cah just filter your wave down to a very narow region, then look at the amplitude curve of that region. For three or four overtones you could do that manually but for, say, twenty it becomes much less fun.

Every time topics like this pop up people start saying how good Bidule is for this stuff so I´ll do the same; lotsa people say plogue bidule is the shit for this stuff.

:¬)

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steampump



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I'm not shure if its the right way.
3 things need to be extracted
Global enveloppe , Pitch enveloppe , and wave shape analyse.
I means each sample have to tuned to same pitch before making the shape analyse.
For rough exemple : the sound can go from a sinus to a square and end with a triangle.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

praat does what you want, designed for voice but will work on any periodicish wave file. Learning curve's a bit steep but worth it. And its free.

Also, CSound has some stand alone analysis stuff for phase vocoding and heterodyne etc. You may have to write your own code to plot the results though.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Pump; no need to track overall volume, it will be implied in the volume curves of the partials anyway.

G2ian; I was thinking about Csound´s spectral data stuff too but that´s far from a simple program. In fact that corner of Csound is esoecially complex and obscure, I never heard anybody say "Yeah, tonight we´ll be treating some spectral data types" cheerfully. Plotting the envelopes once you have them is easy though; you could just write them as wave files, since Csound can write textfiles and the file format of the G1´s patches used to be fairly readable in the early versions you could conceivably have Csound generate pch files (or rather set a couple of dozen veriables in a otherwise static file). Better yet; you could set up a standard patch with osc. tuning and envelope segments linked to cc´s and have Csound controll the G2.

For bonus points; involve LISP in some way, then spend the rest of the evening arguing this was unavoidable and indeed the most interesting element of the setup. Send results to Hartman.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

CSound is awesome, almost as awesome as the endless patience of those who actually use it.
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Kassen
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Fully agreed.
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Chet



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Kassen is right, what you're describing is a tracking phase vocoder.

PVAN 2.0 is a tracking phase vocoder for Windows that may do what you want. It's pretty easy to use. You just give it a sample file, and enter the frequency of the fundamental pitch. It will analyze the sound, and display amplitude and frequency envelopes for the individual harmonics.

It only works for periodic sounds with integer harmonics. Bells, for example, will produce garbage. But because it's a 'tracking' phase vocoder, it will accept minor deviations in harmonic frequency, and create a graph that contains the frequency envelope.

It's a free research tool, and can be downloaded.
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steampump



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks for all these feeadback. I will have so direction to dig.
I 'm not shure if the data will be applied to my G2 or My K5.
I have made a litte test with the G2 to see how far i can go in additiv synthesis...
Maximum is reached with 28 partials in 2 patch within a performance multi 8 notes with an expanded Engine. Big surprise to;, we cannot store midi chanels in a performance for each patch Evil or Very Mad
Only in global setting !
No var(s) are made now .Each partial has an envellope and a LFO.
All lfo are detuned and make a somekind of walk through the partial combinations.
Don't abuse the sound is hypnotic and can damage your brain Laughing
You should have a big midi controlller to assign all partials (forget it)


Addmultimix.prf2
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Additiv syntesis experiment

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steampump



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

I found another free tool for spectral analysis
Look for SMS Tool 2 , this programm is free and makes both analysis and synthesis.
Here the adress
http://www.iua.upf.es/sms/
I found also a little tool to convert wav into add data for K5000 not test yet but maybe usefull to. I will test it tomorrow.

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wildbill



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 04, 2005 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

steampump: could you post a link for the tool for the k5000 please.
i'd be very interested in trying something like that.
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steampump



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Chris Dalton's wav2add
http://www.stoffelshome.de/download/wav2add.zip
The program is extracting the data from a single wave not from a sound sample.
The programm works only in DOS mode.
On my XP and W98 it does not generate the output data file. But you can copy and paste the data from the windows frame.
My idea is to take the wave from different position within a sound , put them in Exel and plot the curve for each partial. Then i want to use ADSR to fake the partial curve. But first i need to test if the data gives the same wave back with G2 or K5 befor losing to much time.

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

To get the output data into a file you can run the program with a command line like :

wav2add in.wav>out.ka1

I looked into the source code, judgeing from that the verification is performed by the program itself.

It first analyzes the data and it then makes an out.wav by summing the partials it found. So comparing your in.wav to the generated out.wav in a wave editor should give you some clues about the quality.

It will be a lot of work with this program to make a dynamic analisys ...

Jan.
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steampump



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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

input and output.wav are just 2 step away from random. The program work only with very simple wave shapes....
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

And when you play the waves repeatedly, do they then sound the same ?

Two very differently looking waves can still sound almost the same.

Jan.
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Sander_k



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Jan, i've been looking at that 'raw2patch' program where you made a graphical interface for.. ain't that exactly the program that Steampump needs? Wouldn't it be nice if the code for G2 patches where as modifiable (if accessible at all) as with the G1?

certainly with all the new shaping possibillities i think the G2 will be an even more powerfull machine if the patches where as modifiable

@Steampump, what is the length of the wave you want to analyze btw?
As mentioned earlier, you can as well look at the piece of wave in CE pro's spectral view i think
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paul e.



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2005 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

this probably won;t help you guys as i think it may be mac-only..biut Metasynth is a nifty app...and i believe it can perform the task

http://www.uisoftware.com/MetaSynth/index.html

at any rate, check this app out..it's very cool , i love it...

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rnp



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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 8:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Metasynth really is great. I've been playing with the demo since it was released, seriously considering saving up for this one.
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