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 Forum index » Clavia Nord Modular » Nord Modular G2 Discussion
FSR1
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aMUSEd



Joined: Jun 08, 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:14 am    Post subject: FSR1 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Since the G2 has great FM capabilities as well as formant filters would it be possible to make something like an FSR1? Anyone made anything similar?
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Unfed



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

i'm guessing you're speaking of the Yamaha FS1R?
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aMUSEd



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Oops sorry - didn't notice the reversal - yes Smile
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mother misty



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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:57 pm    Post subject: Re: FSR1 Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

aMUSEd wrote:
Since the G2 has great FM capabilities as well as formant filters would it be possible to make something like an FSR1?


I had the exact same question about a month ago.
So I've downloaded the FS1R manual.
Seems like a FS1R has 16 "formant operators"
(8 voices & 8 unvoiced ones), it also has 88 algo's instead of 32.
I've no idea how to make a formant operator, maybe some people on this board with a FS1R can give some comment on that?
I know Acidfever has a FS1R...
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Might this also be called VOSIM or maybe FOF? Check Clark's referencefor the 1st gen NM, http://www.cim.mcgill.ca/~clark/nordmodularbook/nm_oscillator.html#FOF

or Hordijk's http://www.clavia.se/nordmodular/Modularzone/VOSIM.html

Sounds interesting, and possible Smile
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mother misty



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Here's the FS1R manual if anyone is interested...


FS1R_Owners_Manual.pdf
 Description:
Yamaha FS1R manual

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 Filename:  FS1R_Owners_Manual.pdf
 Filesize:  2.23 MB
 Downloaded:  467 Time(s)

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Afro88



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

If I understand the manual correctly, this is essentially what it is, but without alot of the modulation options (sequencers for formant parameters etc.) and effects. It's only 6 formant operator too, because I wanted to use the inbuilt dxrouter.

Initially in the manual it looked like each operator had it's own bandpass filter, but after reading a review it's more that when patching, you should consider each formant operator to occupy one formant area - the formant filter is applied to the mix of the operators. At least that's my understanding...

You can get some pretty cool sounds!


FS1R-alike.pch2
 Description:
Based on the FS1R's formant shaping synthesis

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 Filename:  FS1R-alike.pch2
 Filesize:  5.38 KB
 Downloaded:  813 Time(s)

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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

When I try to download the "FS1R-alike.pch2" attachment I get a message that the file does not exist anymore, don't know what went wrong but could you maybe try to upload it agaun Afro ?
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aMUSEd



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Afro88 wrote:
If I understand the manual correctly, this is essentially what it is, but without alot of the modulation options (sequencers for formant parameters etc.) and effects. It's only 6 formant operator too, because I wanted to use the inbuilt dxrouter.

Initially in the manual it looked like each operator had it's own bandpass filter, but after reading a review it's more that when patching, you should consider each formant operator to occupy one formant area - the formant filter is applied to the mix of the operators. At least that's my understanding...

You can get some pretty cool sounds!


Clever - thanks -I'll give this a try.

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mosc
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Blue Hell wrote:
When I try to download the "FS1R-alike.pch2" attachment I get a message that the file does not exist anymore, don't know what went wrong but could you maybe try to upload it agaun Afro ?

Hmm. Works OK for me. Maybe a temporary network connection problem.

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Afro88 wrote:
Initially in the manual it looked like each operator had it's own bandpass filter


Each operator can be an FM operator or a bandpass filter, there are also optional multimode filters for each voice. The operators also have some interesting non sine options. What an amazing synthesiser, it even plays DX7 patches.
I think the G2 would be selling better if it accepted DX sysex dumps.
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

After reading the manual a bit, aren't these osciallators more like "bandpass" oscillators, so that when the bandwidth is reduced all the way, they are generating a basic sine wave, and hence the DX compatibilty? Otherwise, each osc is generating a single formant, a complete bell shape in the freq. domain?
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Blue Hell
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

mosc wrote:
Maybe a temporary network connection problem.


Guess so, later it worked ok, the patch does some nice things !

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Afro88



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

g2ian wrote:
Afro88 wrote:
Initially in the manual it looked like each operator had it's own bandpass filter


Each operator can be an FM operator or a bandpass filter, there are also optional multimode filters for each voice. The operators also have some interesting non sine options.


Ahh yes, I see. In "form" for each operator, you can choose sine, all1, all2, odd1, odd2, res1, res2, frmt. Sine is the usual sine wave, but there are parameters that are effective when the other forms are chosen. If frmt is chosen, the operator behaves like a bandpass filter. Now how does that interact in the algorithm? Does the signal just pass through it? Also, I noticed there is a knob where you can change the volume of voiced operators as to unvoiced operators. Does that mean these are separate (FM wise)? Damn this is a huge synth.

It also looks like there is one multimode filter per "voice" (patch in Clavia speak). At least they're clear about that one.

I haven't read it yet, but this looks like a good guide: http://www.sitepassenger.com/thomas/fs1r/heart.html
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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yes, according to that link Afro88, Yamaha is using a form of FOF syntehsis. A sine wave is pushed through a short envelope (window function), much like granular synthesis works. Then there's the option of using a saw instead of a sine. Even though the author refers to the envelopes as Window Functions, I don't think this method should be confused with Window Function synthesis, which is another method of generating Formants.

...

All these terms reminded me of Curtis Roads book (computer music tutorial), so I pull that out and tried to make a comaprison...it's definetly FOF. In fact, the originators of FOF also used the same terminology and basic parameters as the FS1R uses-- defining a skirt, peak center amplitude, and the Q/bandwidth at -6db. Turn off the envelope, and you get a pure sine wave out, just like the original operators in the DX series.
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Afro88



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Aha!
Quote:
Note that only the Voiced Operators are linked together in an Algorithm. The Unvoiced Operator outputs are just added together like inputs to a mixing desk (i.e. exactly the same as Algorithm 1 on the FS1R).


and then this:

Quote:
Well it seems that the Voiced Operators act as formants when the wave parameter is set to frmt. As the Voiced/Unvoiced Operators form a formant pair, the Unvoiced Operator gets formanted by the Voiced one.


From here: http://web.archive.org/web/20021023062342/http://www.geocities.com/rcstrange2000/FS1R.htm

And there's heaps of info here: http://web.archive.org/web/20040207195412/http://www.yamahasynth.com/down/fs1r/s_guide.htm
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ian-s



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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2006 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Yep, fof not filters. Still not exactly clear on what is going on, the patents are making my brain hurt.

Coincidentally, this is similar to what's going on inside the speakjet speech synthesiser chip that I have been trying to emulate recently.
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Afro88



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Having a look at the JM Clark explanaition and also Rob's VOSIM description I've come up with this. You can't change the bandwidth or the "skirt", but you can change the frequency and level of each formant operator. I haven't put in any modulators yet, but you can get some cool sounds. All operators function in the FS1R "frmt"/formant mode. FM with these operators sounds really quite cool.

I like where this form of synthesis is coming from. Through looking for stuff about the FS1R, I've found info about formants and why they're important in physical modelling style patches. Pretty much all acoustic musical instruments have formants that remain static and form the main character of the sound. Then you've got some that move as the tune changes, some that move as volume changes, the position you're hitting/bowing/whatever etc. Alot of the electronic music I like has lots of stuff recorded through guitar amps and the like (which act as the static formants) which I guess makes it sound more natural/characterful/pleasant to the ear.


8op VOSFM synth.pch2
 Description:
8 operator VOSIM FM synth

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 Filename:  8op VOSFM synth.pch2
 Filesize:  4.48 KB
 Downloaded:  824 Time(s)

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ian-s



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 3:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Nice patch Afro.

Those patents are heavy reading Sad

I posted something related over here
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mosc
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Afro88 wrote:
Through looking for stuff about the FS1R, I've found info about formants and why they're important in physical modelling style patches. Pretty much all acoustic musical instruments have formants that remain static and form the main character of the sound.


Absolutely. This is why I keep mentioning that the G2 is severely deficient in the lack of a fixed filter bank.

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3phase



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

and polyphonic sequencer storage !! Smile))

hope clavia is doing an upgrade before trying to convince me for a G3 one day...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Thanks g2ian, your patch made me rethink using an LFO to act as the envelope Smile

This version, seems to do everything the formant operator does, making use of FOF synthesis (sine wave amplitude modulated by an envelope). Using an exponential shaper I've managed to get what I think is the "skirt" functionality, but I can't be sure. It sounds like it anyway...

I started with a shape LFO as the "envelope" and realised that the shape effects the width when it is 90 degrees out of phase with the osc. Due to aliasing, I've switched it for a OscShpA, but this has no phase control so I've used LFO's with the correct phase for syncing. If anyone knows of a better way to do this, please modify!

Edit: Damn, this one buzzes on certain notes if you only keytrack track pitch and not formant freq. I think this might be because the LFO isn't completely in tune with the osc.... Any ideas?


formant operator.pch2
 Description:
FS1R style formant operator

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 Filename:  formant operator.pch2
 Filesize:  1.43 KB
 Downloaded:  719 Time(s)

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Afro88



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

Ugh, I was barking up the wrong tree. Here is the fixed version. Essentially identical to Rob's VOSIM osc from his workshop but with a OscShp as the main oscillator. The shape of the osc determines the width of the spectrum. Shaping this exponentially seems to give the skirt functionality. I'm not sure why, but the buzzing I talked about in the last post dissapears when you square the output of the Frequency sine osc.


formant operator2.pch2
 Description:
Fixed FS1R style formant operator. Tune, Freq, Width and Skirt parameters.

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 Filename:  formant operator2.pch2
 Filesize:  1.17 KB
 Downloaded:  780 Time(s)

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jksuperstar



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote  Mark this post and the followings unread

This is one way of doing formants statically (turn off the KBT). This method doesn't have the skirt control, but is basically bandpass filters excited by regular impulses. I was going through implementations, and got tired of trying to make a 5ms envelope, with accurate attack and decay controls, so I thought I'd dump my brain on this. Educational value only, and not FS1R related (in implementation). Howard's much sought after Fixed Filter Bank is mostly there, just modularly.

I was modeling an "A" for the most part, though controlling those bandwidths is tough without a spectrum analyser in front of me.


6op_formant_static.pch2
 Description:
6 op static formant

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 Filename:  6op_formant_static.pch2
 Filesize:  1.85 KB
 Downloaded:  845 Time(s)

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